From: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: Time For 505 World's Changes
Dear 505 Hotshots
We believe the World’s format and
courses should be changed to make the racing more fun and more appealing to a wider cross
section of sailors. The World’s format needs; less upwind legs, downwind finishes,
more races and simpler scoring.
The World’s course is too biased towards very very big crews. Peter Alarie was too
small at 205 lbs! For the good of the class and class growth we need to make changes so
more normal sized people can crew.
The World’s course has too many upwind legs, which puts too much of a premium on
upwind performance. This requires big crews, years of experience and hours of two boat
tuning. This reduces the number of potential crews and discourages newcomers. Would'nt we
all like to spend more time going downwind?
Solution: Have downwind finishes. This is
easier for the race committee, they do not have to move. Additionally another race could
be started quickly.
Reaches versus Running: The two triangles also places a premium on big crews.To us the fun
downwind starts at 12 knots when the pole is on the headstay and the crew is on the wire.
Maybe that will be 10 knots with the big kite. Compared to reaching, wire running is more
fun for the crew, more tactical, less of a parade, has more lanes and often is faster than
a main flogging tight reach.
Course Solution: Upwind, Run, triangle, Upwind, Run. Finish at the bottom of the run.
Jibemark at 90 degrees. Use a offset mark after the weather mark to start the
run.Theoretically gates work but are very hard to set right and if not perfect they defeat
the purpose.
We should have 2 races per day, like most classes. Have a seven day 13 or 14 race series
with 2 drops after 9 races. Lastly we should use low point scoring. It is much easier and
rarely makes a difference in the outcome.
These changes are not unique, virtually all Olympic and other major classes have gone this
way.
I would like to see if we could reach a consensus between you and other key players before
we take it to a open forum. I believe that Krister, Holger and many others would support
it. I can even remember Peter Colclough talking about the need for these changes years
ago.
Let me know what you think. Sail fast.
Howie
From: Peter Alarie [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 5 februari 2001 12:53
Subject: RE: Time For 505 World's Changes
All,
I fully support Howard's proposal,
exactly as written. I think the time has come to update the racing in this great class,
and these changes will make the top level more accessible to a wider group of sailors.
Peter Alarie
From: Rosen, Ebbe
Sent: den 6 februari 2001 19:34
Subject: RE: Time For 505 World's Changes
I also support Howard's proposal.
Ebbe Rosen
From: Raimo Raita [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 6 februari 2001 13:42
To: Rosen, Ebbe
Cc: Arno Parviainen
Subject: Vs: Dags för 505-VM förändringar
Howard,
Now you are talking! This has been our
worry since having had the chance to see the big boys work the beast upwind in real
weather. Us poor, light weight, too-little-practising lake sailors will probably never get
to the top if heavy wind beating ability is the decisive factor. (OK OK I know there are
very good light weight crews making it in breeze but they are the exception to the rule)
So anything that helps us gets our vote...
These changes would put more weight on boat handling, tactical decision making and
strategic planning. Light weight crews will certainly benefit.Thus maybe even the large
majority of us who
1 are not professionals
2 cannot buy the equipment to cover all weather situations
3 cannot replace crew/driver to accommodate weather
4 cannot train all year round
would at least by a freak whim of weather see a medal
sometimes.
The fleet will definitely be more closely
grouped than now. If I have understood correctly today's long courses put a lot of
emphasis on start and first beat and getting up from behind is only possible with extreme
boat speed.
I strongly support a testing period similar to the modified spinnaker. I think most RC's
could handle this with relative ease.
Ebbe, Krister: should we ask Lahti Jaktklubben to consider something like this for us at
the Nordics? Maybe we should race the same course as the 49ers? (Arne don't get agitated I
know you are talking to them, this is just another possibility worth considering).
Regards / Terveisin
Raimo Raita
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 7 februari 2001 16:18
To: Rosen, Ebbe
Subject: Re: Time For 505 World's Changes
Ebbe,
Tell Reimo thanks for the comments. It is
great to see the total 100% support. Now we have to get the class officers to try this out
at Spain World's. I am told they can do it without voting or AGM approval.
We have to push them.
Keep building support so they will do it
without debating it forever.
Thanks.
Howie
From: David J Shelton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 7 februari 2001 21:10
Subject: Re: Time For 505 World's Changes
Well here's my two bits! I feel that the
Worlds is too many days with too little racing. Obviously Durban made the point hit home
hard 3 weeks away from home and 5 sailing days. Granted it was a weather issue this time.
On the two days that we did sail two
races we were still in before 5pm and left at 11 am. We all go to race our 505s why not do
more of it! There is NO reason why we cant sail two a day! Finnish the first race downwind
and the 2nd race in the way closest to the launch site. This way there is not the long
energy/Boat/sail thrash between races.
As far as more downwind legs...Good, but
keep a set of traditional reaches. Leeward gates...Yes runs first tend to bunch up fleets
so more options is really good and keeps the protests down. Offset mark...yes! It opens up
the right side of a run looking upwind. We need to try some of this soon!!! One thing that
came up repeatedly in Durban was how slow it is to evolve our beloved 505 and how we race
it. It seams to me our class constitution was written a long time ago before we we could
email an idea around the World in a matter of moments! Its really time to bring our Worlds
Regatta up to date. More Races less days!
David Shelton USA 8680
From: [email protected]
Sent: 07 February 2001 18:45
Subject: RE: Time For 505 World's Changes
I don't necessarily agree with all of
Howie's comments. I enjoy having one race per day and the Olympic scoring. If we do
anything to the scoring and happen to change it to Low Point, why don't we count ALL races
and have NO throwouts. In this format, the more races the better (12 races or more). I
have no problem mixing up the courses a little bit, maybe trapezoids.
Any long course is going to bias to big crews but only if its above 14 knots of breeze.
Andy
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 8 februari 2001 00:11
Subject: RE: Time For 505 World's Changes
Gentlemen
Before I completely jump on the band
wagon I just want to share my thoughts. I am totally in favor of the larger spinnaker and
WL,WRL,WL course. however, I think multiple races a day(at a Worlds) MAY be a mistake for
the following reasons.
1) Imagine the kind of abuse your sails
and equipment will take when you finish a race in 25-30 knots breeze and then have to sit
for 45 minutes to an hour flogging around waiting for the rest of the fleet to finish and
the R/C to get set up again.
2) You spend say 6,000-8,000$USD and
hundreds of hours of preparation to attend the Worlds, then you happen to break somthing
and miss a day(probably from flogging around between races) and now you miss two races
instead of one, REGATTA OVER!
3) I for see shorter legs so we can fit
in two races. This will make the first two mark roundings crazy instead of exciting.
4) Probably want to shorten the time
limit to finish so we can fit in the two races as well. However, this could only hurt the
less experienced teams that make up the majority of the International 5o5 class YRU.
5) Lastly, I am 26 so don't worry about
me, but for some of you older guys take the physical and mental strain of a current World
Championships and double it!
Benny Benjamin
USA 7771
From: Rondar Raceboats [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 9 februari 2001 16:35
Subject: RE: Time For 505 World's Changes
I definitely support the idea of
modernising the Worlds event to make it a more attractive regatta to all. Some things I
think need to be taken into account are;
Item 1 would be that you can attend a Worlds from any part of the globe and return in 14
days max. ie a programme something like this;
Sat - travelling to regatta
Sun - travelling to regatta
Day 1 Mon - Registration / unpack boats
Day 2 Tue - Race 1 and 2 of Pre Worlds
Day 3 Wed - Race 3 and 4 of Pre Worlds ( 4 race series with 1 throwout )
Day 4 Thu - Measurement and Pre Worlds prizegiving
Day 5 Fri - Race 1 and 2 of Worlds using Howies suggested courses with downwind finish.
Day 6 Sat - Race 3 and 4 of worlds using Howies suggested courses with downwind finish.
Day 7 Sun - Race 5 of Worlds using Trad course + extra beat/run (as UK race of the year)
Day 8 Mon - Spare Day ( used to catch up any of the first 5 races lost)
Day 9 Tue - Race 6 and 7 of Worlds using Howies suggested courses with downwind finish
Day 10 Wed - Race 8 and 9 of Worlds using Howies suggested courses with downwind finish
Day 11 Thu - Race 10 Traditional course plus extra sausage.
Day 12 Fri - Packing up boats (Could be used as race day if required)Worlds Prize giving.
Sat - travelling home
Sun - travelling home
This way we get 10 worlds races of which 2 are long distance races, we get 4 pre worlds
which is plenty, we get 2 days built in to catch up any lost races or to socialise, and we
can do it with only 2 weeks away from work. You could have all 10 races to count, or throw
in 2 discards if you wish.I don't have any real views on scoring except that low point is
easier.I like long races as well so have included 2 long ones for a bit of variety. I
think Andy Beeckman is correct in saying that all championships tend to favour bigger
crews, but more downwind /less upwind should help a bit. ( as a 230lb 6 foot 2" crew
why should I worry?)
Item 2 is to ensure that remains enough time to socialise. If you just want 2 weeks of non
stop sailing time in a 505 you can do that at home. World championships are unique because
of the mix of people and ideas, and the chance to enjoy some time together, as well as
racing. I don't want to spend my whole 2 weeks in a wetsuit, or to turn it to some kind of
endurance event, "Death by Sailing".
Step 3 is to ensure that those guys with families can spend enough time on the beach to
satisfy their other commitments (I know it ranks up there with flying pigs as a kind of
Utopeian dream being able to keep the family happy on a 505 event!) If we want 100+ boat
fleets then we have to provide a decent holiday experience for the middle and back of the
fleet, and we have to accept that we have to go to acceptable holiday venues as well.
Paul Young
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 12 februari 2001 05:44
Subject: Re: Howie's reponse to Paul Young
Paul,
Thanks, those are some good ideas. I
think you are right about standardizing the schedule and shortening the event. Based on
the tally I am keeping, virtually everyone wants more racing, a couple people like
Edwards/Shelton also suggest shortening the total event. As you propose we can have both;
more racing over less time. This is going to increase attendance and fun. I think we could
take your ideas a step further. Here are my thoughts:
STANDARDIZE THE SCHEDULE - This is a great idea. More efficient. Easier for the event
organizers and class officers. We would all know what to expect and can plan ahead.
FIRST AND LAST WEEKENDS FREE - Great idea. Works for everyone. You can use the free time
to train (first weekend), travel, sightsee, or for less time away from home.
TWO DAY PREWORLDS - Good idea. With more races in the World's the preworlds become less
important, therefore we can save time with a short preworlds.
SPARE DAYS - The class eliminated the spare day(s) a few years ago. I think the logic was
as follows. You can't really plan anything for the spare day because of the uncertainty
that you might have to sail. We always seem to have blowouts or no wind days which
effectively become a spare day. So let's schedule 2 more races that day(s).
LONG RACES - Sounds fun, lets do it the last day when we have only 1 race.
PRIZE GIVING AND CONTAINER LOADING - If we do both on the day of the last race it shortens
the event a day, the containers get loaded quicker, everyone is there and the prize giving
is a much better party. if you wait until the day after the last race you lose a day,
people leave, they are hung over, containers take all day to load due to poor attendance
and lack of urgency, and the party is anti climactic. I have seen both ways over the 21
world's I have attended and without a doubt it was best to do it all the day of the last
race.
Thanks for the ideas. Now let's all reach a consensus and try these ideas at Portugal.
There is no downside in trying. We can change what we do not like the next year. Sail
fast.
Howie
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 12 februari 2001 05:52
Subject: Worlds Changes
I think the result of a schedule like the
one suggested above, is that you would not only get a bigger turn out for the worlds, more
people (like me for example) could try to attend other big events (possibly in other
countries) because you can keep the total costs down!! I agree 100% with Howie's comments!
Bruce Edwards
From: Rondar Raceboats [[email protected]]
Sent: den 12 februari 2001 19:13
Subject: RE: Worlds Changes
Howie,
Would suggest that we should keep the
scheduled 2 long races just so as we get at least one of them in a series. if we leave it
to the last day then it will almost always get dumped in a typical series. Alternatively,
could we fix them to be floating in the schedule for those days when it is blowing dogs
off leashes and it is marginal as to wether to go or not. Trying to run 2 races when it is
marginal could make some race officers decide to not go, and at least with a long race you
can get round quicker in a breeze, and also recover ground from a capsize easier, as well
as not having to wait around after the finish for a second start.
The only reason for scheduling 2 lay days was that a) they would have got used at every
event I have been to, and b) do we really need a 14 or 16 races series to decide our
champion. Having said that I guess if you schedule racing for the first layday, and a
single race for the last day then you just get as many races in over the week as the
weather gods allow.
I agree with your views on last day sailing / loading of containers.
cheers,
Paul Young
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 9 februari 2001 13:22
Subject: Re: Time For 505 World's Changes
Howie - I've been thinking about the
situation, waiting until most of the other people weighed in before offering my opinions.
You may recall that I did send you my first impressions back when you first floated the
idea.
At best, everyone's opinion of what will
happen if and when the championship rules are changed is conjecture. Until we actually do
some sailing with a new course, a new format, a new spinnaker, etc, we will never
really know how things will play out.
From my understanding, the goals of your proposal seem to be:
1) Have more racing
2) Allow lighter crews be more competitive
3) Allow for simpler scoringg
On the issue of more racing, it seems that
you advocate more sailing time per day, and not necessarily significantly shorter legs.
Your prescribed course is 7 legs if I'm not mistaken, so if the legs are roughly the same
length as a standard worlds course, we are looking at a race which is about 75% of the
distance. With two races in a day, we would essentially be sailing 50% more. This seems
like a good change to me. On the issue that Benny brings up about stamina for older teams,
I think that because this is a world championship, stamina is an essential part of the
equation to win, and should not be given special consideration. With 2 races per day, I
think it's vital that we have 2 drops as you prescribe.
As for heavier crews being more competitive, I know that your training data suggests this
is the case, and I can't personally refute this. However, Thomas Moss was only about 6
foot and 200 pounds, so your theory may only apply to American boats/rigs. I'm also
skeptical as to whether a course change will necessarily make lighter crews any more
competitive. The first leg is upwind, favoring heavier crews by your definition. The
downwind leg should favor lighter crews, but this effect will surely be offset to a degree
if the big spinnaker passes the vote. Also, I am skeptical as to whether 505 sailors will
like the 90 degree reach. I don't think people will favor it with the smaller kite. I also
think downwind finishes may present a problem with identifying boats in tight packs
because sail numbers are more difficult to read, and boats may be moving much faster, but
this might be a minor issue.
On the scoring, simpler is better in my
opinion. How many world championships have been close enough that a scoring difference
would've affected the outcome? I don't think this need be a major issue.
Jesse
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 12 februari 2001 00:58
To: David J Shelton
Subject: Re: Time For 505 World's Changes
Guys,
I agree with Howard's proposal in
principal. I think there should be more races and less days. Plenty of guys sail other
boats as well, this would allow us to get plenty of 505 racing in a shorter time frame as
well as allow the flexability to sail other class's without having to take massive amounts
of time off work for a little amount of sailing.
I think Dave Shelton hit it on the head also, everything takes so bloody long to get
sorterd. Once we get general consensus on this, lets make it happen quickly. Modern
communication is a beautiful thing, use the email and lets get cracking.
regards
Carter |
