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From: Tim Boeger
Sent: 30 May 2003 17:49
To: 505world
Subject: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen Schoenherr
1. CARBON SPARS
Howie based his arguments on the criteria:
1) more fun, 2) long-term-cost and 3) class growth.
On my opinion from the class' point of view the one and only valid criteria
is 3) class growth potential. From the class' point of view it doesn’t
matter, if the people who are sailing the boat are high-techies (who are
producing there own carbon rigs) or „richies“ (who are always buying the
most expensive and hopefully the best materials) or just the nicest people
on earth (who already own the boats today).
As long as the class is growing, plus – and that is important – the class is attracting more of the young
sailors, everything is allright.
But I believe, that the group of sailors who just want to race in an attractive class and not
necessarily belonging to the „richies“ or the high-techies is the biggest group the 505-class can attract. For both other
groups there are in general better alternatives as e.g. 14' or 18' skiffs or
big boats.
Up to here nothing is said about the carbon vote. But I guess we have to
keep the fun / cost factor as high as possible. We have to increase the fun
(which was perfectly done by using bigger spinnakers) or we have to decrease
the costs.
We will not achieve this by using carbon masts because it only will look cooler, but I doubt that it will increase the fun to sail enough
to get a better fun/cost ratio.
If one focuses the new blood it is hard to say where the most would go to, to a class which looks cool (a strong
argument for a 20 year old) or to a class which is affordable (an even stronger argument after having a look into ones pocket).
If you focus coolness, the 49er will be the coolest anyway – whatever type of rigs we use.
Maybe there is another way to get the young sailors into the class. Which
leads me to my (very late) answer to Joergen Schonherr.
2. HOW TO GET THE 505 CLASS GROWING AGAIN?
Joergen has brought one of the most important points into discussion which
was more or less completely out of focus of class policy. The 505 is nothing
else but a product like a bike, a computer, a skiing holiday or a new piece
of furniture. Consequently we have to think of traditional marketing or –
better, realize we are acting in competition with many other products for a
limited amount of money able to be spent for things like a boat.
Joergen's answer is to open our potential market by allowing bigger/heavier
helmsmen to sail lighter boats. Our market of potential sailors would not
only grow but also expand in a market niche which is more or less unattracted by any other dinghy class. All
dinghies are focusing on lighter helms.
For Joergen this is a logical consequence because we see him being quite
heavy now and the courses having changed to a type with advantages for lighter crews. Anyhow, there are some sexy thoughts in his proposal:
#1: heavy sailors are not any longer forced to sail keel boats, because they
can reduce the weight of the 505.
#2: boat builder can build lighter boats without lead for heavy helmsmen due
to a total helmsman/boat weight.
#3: currently „light“ boats at actual standard weight, which will turn into
heavy boats in the future after reducing the overall boat weight won’t be
obsolete because they will be competitive for light helms who would have to
put correctors into boats which are measuring minimum weight after weight
reduction.
But:
#1: Both weight of helmsman and boat have to be measured before racing, incl.
negative effects on helmsman's eating behavior.
#2: having this rule adopted, light boats have to have easily adjustable
weight correctors due to changing helmsmen weights. This requires
controls also during series and gives very keen sailors another chance to cheat.
Considering the „buts“ I came to another strategy to get the class growing
again. The question to be answered is „for what reasons are young sailors
NOT coming to the 505?“
#1. they don’t like the boat (because they will try the 49er)
#2. the 505 is too expensive
#3. the typical 505-sailor is too old (what will be a reason sooner or later, just look who is in front of the fleet – often experienced sailors)
The youngsters of point 1) we will never get. The group of youngster who don’t have enough money could get bigger and bigger if the price increases and
will lead automatically to a bigger group of point 3). I myself stepped into
the class as a student with little money but enough to share with my helm a
semi competitive Parker. The boat was approx 4 years old, it could be expected to sail the boat for another 2 years and the price was about a
third of a new one, 2.500 EUR (1984). Today a new boat costs approx 18.000
or 19.000 EUR, a semi competitive approx 6.500 EUR (which will be 8 or 9
years old today).
So the price for a semi-competitive boat raised in 20 years by 160% !
The price for a new one raised more or less the same. If one look behind the figures there are very good reasons for increasing prices:
#1. the boats are lasting much longer and can be sold for much better second
hand prices – they keep their value.
#2. the boats are built today mainly by better materials (which is one reason
for 1.).
#3. the spinnaker is bigger, in general more fittings are in use.
All these reasons can well explain the today's prices. But: the young guys don’t see this. Because we got to a new price segment they just compare: buying
a 505 or attracting the girls by driving a used (but hip) convertible?
Sailing a 505 is not more expensive than it ever was. Only a little bit in
respect of more expensive sails. But the barrier to step into the class is
much higher today. How can we get this barrier down again?
As we know, that a 505 will keep its value today much better than 10 or 15
years ago, we also know, that we can sell our boat for a reasonable price
after having sailed it for while. Therefore is my proposal a simple one,
which everybody can just do without big risks and without changing the class
and without spending 3.000 EUR for a new carbon rig incl. new sails:
Everybody who would buy a new carbon rig (I guess more than 50% in 2 years)
should offer instead 1.000 EUR to a newcomer who has not enough money to buy
a used semi-competitive 505. Finding another one to support a newcomer, make
advances of 2.000 EUR to the newcomer and let the newcomer pay the money
back when he sells the boat. The boat is security enough to get the money
back, abandon an interest rate – and the class can grow again.
What do you think?
Tim Boeger
GER 8669
From: Jesse Falsone
Sent: 30 May 2003 18:28
To: 505world
Subject: Re: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen Schoenherr
The issue of class growth really needs to be addressed more, both in this
forum and by the executive officers from international all the way down to
the fleet.
We've been over this issue many times before, so I won't go into any diatribes because its all been said. Here are a few questions and comments
to ponder, however:
1) Why do owners of 20 year old superboats want $8000-$12000 USD for their
boats now? The reasons are numerous, but this class also needs to rely on
a certain degree of "charity", both in terms of time and money, to get new
sailors into the boat. Treat your boat as an investment in fun and recreation, and not a financial investment. If you've gotten a few hundred
good rides from a boat, and won a few regattas, consider that time and money well-spent, and pass along the good vibe to a new, young,
enthusiastic sailor by giving them a great deal. This attitude needs to be
fostered to grow the sport in general. If we persist in valuing boats based
solely on their intrinsic and "market" value, we will be effectively cutting off our nose to spite our face. Consequently, in 20 years the 505
class will end up being a bunch of geezers still claiming what a great boat
we have.
2) What do we really compete against? With dwindling numbers in dinghy
sailing in general, our real competition is for time, not with other boats.
With young sailors splitting their time between sailing, school, and a host
of other sports and activities, we need to be more focused on how we run
our events.
With this culture, can most people afford to take off 2-3 weeks for a worlds, or an entire week for a national championship? No.
They have soccer games, school work, parenting responsibilities, careers,
etc.
Lets get a better grip on our competition, then we will better know how to form a marketing strategy.
3) How many new sailors have you taken for a ride this year? You can't
effectively recruit new sailors from the beach. Know of a promising and
enthusiastic young sailor at your club? Great - offer to take them for a
ride (on a windy day) and maybe even sail with them at a local regatta.
Regards,
Jesse Falsone
Team CSC
USA 8776
From: Paul Young
Sent: 30 May 2003 21:22
To: Jesse Falsone; 505world
Subject: RE: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen
Schoenherr
The biggest problem in this class stems from the rather muddled idea the class
seems to have about who we are and what we represent as a class within the sailing
world.
The current proposal on carbon spars is a classic example of a decision that
will have a major effect on the future global well being of the class, and yet it
is going to ballot as an isolated decision, based on the merits of carbon as a spar
material rather than as part of a co-ordinated marketing strategy.
Clearly if you wish to grow the class, or persuade youngsters to come into the fleet
then we should vote no to carbon spars at present on the grounds that they will make
about 1/2 the second hand boats in the world obsolete, as the cost of the new mast
will write the boat off. On the other hand, if you want to take the right long term
view for the class, then lifting the ban may make sense.
The same can be said of every aspect of the class, in that where we go for our major
events, the timing, duration and frequency of them, the overall time it takes to compete,
are all major factors on our future success as a class. We all know that a good Worlds
venue at the right time of year can attract 150 boats, and stimulate the purchase of new
boats, revitalise local or national fleets and so on. The wrong Worlds event at the
wrong time of year can do the opposite.
All these facts point to the need for a clear, published marketing policy, and an effective
class management structure that reflects the global nature of the class.
Tim Boger is right, if you had to summarise what we should do to encourage growth
we should look at 505 sailing as though it were any other commodity, or product. Very simply, we just
need to make the product, (505 sailing), attractive to a wider range of people.
To me this means the following;
1/ This means good events in great places so that people want to sail a 505 to go to
them.
It means getting the location, timing and the duration right for each major event.
2/ It means simplifying the product so you don't need to spend a fortune on
development in both time and money to compete. The level of current development of foils and rigs in
the class is becoming about as anal and pointless as Formula one racing or the Americas Cup.
3/ We should get the pricing right. It is the most fundamental part of any marketing
strategy, and frankly the youngsters we have managed to attract into the class in the UK cannot afford
to compete, so they leave again.
4/ We need to promote the class through shared events, lending boats, managed
publicity, taking people for test sails and so on. Everywhere were there is a strong 505 scene in the world,
it is not an accident, but usually because there is a keen fleet captain, or National
Association, or someone who has properly managed the situation locally to achieve the high level of activity.
5/ We need to be prepared to invest in the future of the class, by getting rid of the outdated
constitution and unwieldy management structures of the class and to accept that with e mail
and web sites and global travel that we should have a single International 505 Class Association
that runs our class via a multi-national council or governing committee to a proper plan. The plan
should be reviewed and amended each year to reflect the changes that will inevitably be made as the
world changes but at least we will have a constant policy and decisionmaking process.
6/ Lastly we need to have enough vision and bravery to make the correct decisions for
the long term benefit of the class, and not to continue to take the attitude that "if it aint broke don't fix it".
There is a general belief that because the class has existed for 50 years it will always do so.
We should adopt the attitude that we, as the current generation of 505 sailors are only the
custodians of the class for future generations and that we should try to leave the class
in a better state than when we joined it.
regards,
Paul Young.
Rondar Raceboats Ltd.
+44 (0)1380 831138.
From: Tom Bojland
Sent: 31 May 2003 15:16
To: Paul Young
Cc: Jesse Falsone; 505world
Subject: Re: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen Schoenherr
Thanks Paul, Tim & Jesse for some good and interesting points.
See my views below (in blue).
Tom Bojland
President
International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association
Paul Young <[email protected]> wrote:
> 1/ This means good events in great places so that people want to sail
> a 505 to go to them.
> It means getting the location, timing and the duration right for each major event.
Absolutely right, I expect a good debate about the
European circuit (and some decisions!) at the AGM in Malmoe, so it will be more
attractive in the future and have a higher profile in the minds of the sailors.
The same goes for the future worlds.
> 2/ It means simplifying the product so you don't need to spend a fortune on
> development in both time and money to compete.
> The level of current development of foils and rigs in the class is becoming
> about as anal and pointless as Formula one racing or the Americas Cup.
As Tim says, the ratio between fun & cost should be as good as
possible. A HA centerboard or black mast does, in my view, not do any good to that ratio. But that can mean that we in the class maybe even have
to restrict our rules more (swallow some camels!!!) to raise the fun
factor.
> 3/ We should get the pricing right. It is the most fundamental part of
any
> marketing strategy, and frankly the youngsters we have managed to attract
> into the class in the UK cannot afford to compete,so they leave again.
Then let us have some technical inputs from the
boat builders how to do the boat cheaper/better, you are the experts on this.
> 4/ We need to promote the class through shared events, lending boats,
> managed publicity, taking people for test sails and so on.
> Everywhere were there is a strong 505 scene in the world, it is not an
> accident, but usually because there is a keen fleet captain, or National
> Association, or someone who has properly managed the situation locally
> to achieve the high level of activity.
You are right, the best sales force win if the products are just alike! This is driven by enthusiastic
people out there. We see it all the time, suddenly a fleet comes from nothing in a few years, because of some dedicated peoble, then its getting big and everybody is happy, and the "sales force" goes to sleep!!, and some new
enthusiastic people in another class (or even in a completely other sport) work for what they think are best, and they win and we loose!!!.
That means, that we all, every time we have the possibility to do it, has to be "the sales guy" when we see potential "customers" to our product (boat racing in a 505!!!)
The countries with success definitely do what you describe about shared events,
test rides etc.
> 5/ We need to be prepared to invest in the future of the class,
> by getting rid of the outdated constitution and unwieldy management
> structures of the class and to accept that with e mail and web sites
> and global travel that we should have a single International 505
> Class Association that runs our class via a multi-national council or
> governing committee to a proper plan. The plan should be reviewed and
> amended each year to reflect the changes that will inevitably be made
> as the world changes but at least we will have a constant policy and
> decision making process.
Interesting point, but it needs some more explanation from you (look forward to the discussions in Malmoe next month)
> 6/ Lastly we need to have enough vision and bravery to make the correct
> decisions for the long term benefit of the class, and not to continue to
take
> the attitude that "if it aint broke don't fix it".
> There is a general belief that because the class has existed for 50 years
> it will always do so. We should adopt the attitude that we, as the current
> generation of 505 sailors are only the custodians of the class for future
> generations and that we should try to leave the class n a better state
> than when we joined it.
As I say, we might have to "swallow some camels" in the future, to make
sure that the class will exist the next 50 years.
From: Mathew Hansen
Sent: 31 May 2003 18:41
To: 505world
Subject: RE: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen
Schoenherr
I agree with Paul Young that the current class structure is too unwieldy to properly manage the future evolution of the class. The dinghy
market is shrinking worldwide and though we are still faring much better
than most other classes, we need some farsighted leadership to stay in
existence long term. The carbon spar ballot is a case in point. I suspect
that most of us believe that carbon spars are more expensive than aluminium
at present (debatable) and therefore will be inclined to vote against the
change. However I suspect that the majority also believe that this cost factor will change soon and we will eventually have to make the change as
fewer and fewer aluminium masts are built. So a NO vote now should not be
taken as a NEVER. However it will take several years to get the proposal up
to ballot again if it is rejected this time and I suspect that may be too
late. Other sensible changes like allowing fully battened mainsails take
several years to get from proposal to ballot even though it would save us
all a lot of cash by prolonging the life of sails.
We need a much more rapid mechanism for moving from proposal to decision.
The fun factor is closely related to the location timing and
programming of events.
At a local level we have found mini regattas with multiple short races to be far better than single race days over long
courses. Internationally the location for the worlds needs to be good for
the families as well as the sailors and the main event needs to be brief-no more than a week. Lead-up regattas are fine for those who have the time
but should probably be downgraded in importance thereby freeing up more resources for the main event. Costs of running these events can only be
contained by getting sponsorship and the coverage generated by the recent
Grolsch Fremantle worlds on Fox sports should help subsequent world championship organisers get sponsors especially if they maintain contact
with the broadcasters. Will Malmo be on Fox? How about Santa Cruz?
The boat cost factor is related to the complexity of the craft. We
could all save ourselves a lot of money if we banned adjustable shrouds and
forestays and simplified the jib sheeting. We all think we like to tweak
the boats but few of us do it right and I suspect we get more frustration
than benefit out of most of it. A more automatic rig would help and may be
facilitated by the move to carbon.
Cost is also related to durability. A cheap but poorly built boat that lasts only a few years does serious harm to the class. Its all very
well saying that this becomes a cheap entry boat for a newcomer but if it
is not competitive then they won't be able to on-sell it and will get frustrated at being blown away by the better boats and probably give up.
The longevity of the waterat boats is a great asset and the fact that they
hold their value is good for the class and the confidence of a purchaser.
All builders should aspire to this. Our mainsails would last a lot longer
if fully battened, our jibs would last longer if there was no overlap with
the mast and would generate more power if higher aspect, boat handling would be easier if the main had a shorter foot (hence a shorter boom) and a
more efficient shape. We could simplify the boat by allowing daggerboards instead of the
plates we currently use. The case would be much shorter simplifying boat
handling and you would get rid of gaskets and control lines. This would
lead to a significant fall in production time and cost.
Would it still be a 505 I hear you ask! Emphaticly yes. The hull shape would be the same and the 505's great open sea handling
characterists would be even better. New boats could be built and rigged more cheaply and would cost less to maintain. Would old boats become
uncompetitive? All the changes suggested are in the direction of simplifying things and could be easily accomodated on any 505.
The Daggerboard option can be done now on any boat by filling in the case with an insert but if you prefer a swing board stick with it!. Newly built boats
would have the advantage of a purpose built case but other than being easier to sail should have no speed advantage. There are changeover costs
with these proposals but most fall into the category of items that need intermittent replacement anyway (sails, masts, foils) and could be phased
in.
Many of you will react to these suggestions with horror but I submit that we have an
opportunity to maintain and expand our position in the dinghy market as the
intermediate/high performance 2 sailor dinghy class with the greatest overall appeal.
It is not a birthright and we risk
losing it all if we are not pro-active. The 505 may not be broke but it risks becoming
irrelevant.
Matt Hansen
From: Hurwitch, Thomas
Sent: 2 June 2003 16:35
To: 505world
Subject: Re: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen Schoenherr
505 World,
I'm in agreement with Tim Boeger's comments on growing the class. It's time to start attracting young(er) people to get the average age brought back down again.
In speaking with a few people with many years of experience in the class I have the following to say:
1. Marketing: It's obvious there are different competitors, worldwide, for the 505. In Great Britain it appears to be the plethora of asymmetrical dinghies popping up which have driven away some of the best competitors. In the U.S. we have a different problem. We are fighting an attitude that sailing is not a lifetime sport-not worth pursuing after graduating from college. As a whole, the class has to determine its competitive advantages (such as the ability to support higher crew weights than boats such as the 49er and 470, the high fun factor due to
the large chute, etc.).
As national associations we need to further define what it will take to attract the demographic we want. For example, we probably need to tout the social element of the class here in the U.S. to attract sailors who also want to use the class as a means of informal reunions with college friends.
2. Carbon Spars: Without wading too deeply into the pool I'll say that this is not the time for this change. I think it should come at some time, but we need to focus on what's important at the moment-attracting members. If we keep that in perspective then any change which will increase cost and, possibly, complexity (e.g. different sails for different bend characteristics, etc.) will not help the class attract members. As has been previously indicated, the people who want to experiment with carbon masts are already in the I-14 class or some other
more technical class. Unless this is the only demographic we wish to attract, it won't serve us to make an attempt to integrate carbon spars at the moment.
3. Getting new sailors into the class: This idea was proposed by a friend and 505 sailor with many years of experience in the class. At least in the Northeast of the U.S. the most attractive demographic is the ex-collegiate sailor who has recently been orphaned because they no longer sailor Vanguard 15's, 420's or Tech dinghies like they did in college. These highly-skilled sailors would thrive in the 505-but have some reservation(s) due to price and/or complexity. The thought was to get a boat or two which is on the market or simply available for use which the members of the region will underwrite the costs for to make the boat available for charter at a very reasonable price. Once the new sailor is hooked the boat can be sold to him or her at a fair price and another boat will be brought into the mix for donation into the program. While we have yet to determine exactly how it will work I think it is a fantastic idea and, ultimately, precisely what we need (at least here) to get the class growing again.
Tom Hurwitch
WitchCraft Boats, Inc.
From: Jens Hufnagel
Sent: 2 June 2003 20:43
To: 505world
Subject: 505 future
Dear et all,
we are all under the impression of the current carbon spar ballot, a shrinking world economy, less young sailors etc.
In my opinion the whole discussion went too much into a technical and "marketing" direction.
The German fleet still has a constant size but facing shrinkage which we think to cover with the worlds in 2005.
Being an "official" for now 1 year I certainly have a good feeling about success or failure of a boat class.
At least in Germany there is no relation between technical standard and fleet size, it is even vice versa. Traditional slow boats being designed in the 30s have a great and still growing share.
The entry price (competitive used boat) also does not really seem to be of big importance. The "Pirat", a heavy, old fashioned and slow boat, attracts a lot of the young people and some stay in the class until they are 50 years old (good parties!).
The "key to success" is how you build your national organisation. It should be
built on reliable local representatives, who attract young sailors in their club, their lake or whatsoever.
This is an easily said argument. I personally do face the problem to motivate 35 year old guys with a good job and a family to offer their spare time. So I am looking for young ex 420 sailors to get into these jobs and try to be accepted by us grandfathers.
Technical changes, marketing etc. will not have an influence at all on growth.
People I know came into the class because they always had an eye on the boat and they like the friendly atmosphere!!!
So, all you guys making good (I mean it!) proposals: change your attitude from WE SHOULD... to I WILL...
As long as we have more than 10 people worldwide and 3 in Germany who run the class, the 505 will still exist in the next 20 years.
And: it is just a piece of plastic. It is all the nice people in the class that makes it a fascinating boat. This is why I got into the class and what will make me stay the next 10 years, carbon spars or not.
By the way: The 2005 worlds in Warnemunde will be a great event and I will be personally disappointed if less than 150 boats show up.
CU in Malmoe
Jens
GER 8730
From: Raimo Raita
Sent: 2 June 2003 23:02
To: 505world
Subject: Re: 505 future
Jens,
You hit the nail's head there.
We run older craft than any other class, our cost per hour is minimal, we
don't even dream of top positions in the Worlds,
BUT WE HAVE A GOOD, ACTIVE CLASS ORGANISATION AND WE HAVE PLENTY OF FUN IN
EACH AND EVERY DOMESTIC REGATTA.
Therefore the 505 is the fastest growing grown-ups' class in Finland. We
attract people from other classes. They come to us and say: "It certainly
looks like you have very good racing and plenty of fun afterwards and I can
feel that you guys share. I might join in."
505 has long been seen by others as a high-end, top dogs only boat, available at an astronomical cost. This has changed and I hope this trend
will not be reversed by adding yet another cost on us. My boat is worth 3
keur and I cannot easily imagine investing another 1.5 keur in it just to
make it look nicer. Having said that I now realise that I am really at the
low-low end of the scale but I still somehow manage to win an odd race. And
that keeps me ticking, not the 1/100th of a knot the carbon stick brings me.
So let's forget about expensive, good-looking new materials for a while and
return to basics. We can talk carbon again when the price is right. It will,
I'm sure. And then it's OK with me, too.
The boat sells itself as soon as you get that guy out on a windy day and
show him. That's our marketing strategy.
I appreciate the shake-down theory (outdated boats becoming available for
beginners) but honestly, who buys a boat that is a given loser?
A big fleet moving at 15 knots is better than a small fleet moving at 15.1
knots.
See you in Malmoe!
Raimo Raita
FIN-8056
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 3 June 2003 07:54
To: Jens Hufnagel; 505world
Subject: Re: 505 future
As a relative newcomer to the class my perspective is that we should make the boat simpler and spend more time sailing.
As one local skipper commented for every hour spent on the water there is an hour working on the boat on land.
The class could give some thought to tightening up the design rules so that
it is a much stricter one design, and MAKE THE BOAT SIMPLER.
The flexible goldspar rig was an attractive simply rigged boat that worked
well,
This type of set-up could be duplicated with a carbon rig. i.e. fixed side
stays, adjustable forestay, Mast ram , transverse track jib sheets (no pulley systems), standardise on stern sheeting,
only one profile allowed for the foils and much tighter tolerances on sail
plan one size jib etc.
This needn't stop changes to the class but when changes are made having been trialed by the superstars, and industry people,
e.g. fully battened mainsail, high aspect ratio jib, this should be introduced with tolerances very tight.
Also what about a smaller mainsail / jib combination for lightweight / younger crews as in the Laser class.
I appreciate this may not be in the spirit of the class to date, but it might make it
more appealing to students coming in as older boats would still have competitive gear.
By the way when I was uni student many years ago in the UK, I remember the
perception of 505's was still that that they were sailed by old blokes with
big cars !
the young fleets were the fireballs, lasers etc.
Regards
Norman Brandon
7478
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 3 June 2003 07:56
To: Jens Hufnagel
Cc: 505World
Subject: Re: 505 future
I agree, most people will choose a class depending on what their local club
sails, that's why in Perth old fashioned classes are still strong, eg the
flying fifteen, everybody knows its an old outdated design, but they get
good turnouts every week 20 +, it is weight tolerant and not too expensive
to run, plenty of second hand boats which remain competitive, also the guys
in the class are a good sort. The 505's need to build on their strength
which is an established position in the market, good local fleet with a regular good turnout for racing (this is critical), High visibility on the
local sailing scene is crucial. Other factors include , one-design, good
distribution around the world, good cross section of skills i.e. not all superstars, good
second hand market, with a keen core of sailors, if existing sailors help
coach new people in the class this is also a draw card.
Regards
Norman Brandon
7478
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 3 June 2003 08:00
To: Hurwitch, Thomas; 505World
Subject: Re: short item on carbon spars PLUS long answer to Joergen
Schoenherr
With regard to carbon spars, I believe we should definitely allow carbon
booms and spinnaker poles as this will help older boats get down to weight
and have little effect otherwise on performance. Carbon booms would be "kinder" to the hull during rigging and de-rigging, carbon spinnaker poles
would not damage the side of the masts as much. Some carbon spars would look
"sexier" in the boat park for those who are image conscious. And the class
would become familiar with and provide opportunities for the various local
and overseas carbon spar makers. It would also be apparent when the cost/benefit swung in favour of carbon versus aluminium.
To allow for this I believe the postal ballot should be structured to allow
for this as an option if the total carbon rig is re-jested, that is give
people option 1 : total carbon rig, option 2: aluminium mast , carbon pole
and boom.
Regards
Norman Brandon
7478
Perth
From: Andy Williams
Sent: 3 June 2003 11:40
To: 505world
Subject: RE: short item on carbon spars
Couple of thing everyone needs to consider in this "debate".
1. It's too late to restructure the ballot. That decision was made in Freemantle and the paperwork is already on it's way to the membership.
2. The current rule is an anachronism in terms of the rules as a whole. Nowhere else do we restrict materials. I don't see anyone worrying about the fact that most of our manufacturers have moved from Cold-moulded plywood to pre-preg epoxy construction for the hulls, despite the fact that this has increased materials cost.
3. We are going to Carbon Spars. If not now, under our control and with some input into the development, then later, when the manufacturers say so. Same as moving from wood to epoxy (and all the stages in between). Same as moving from landline phones to mobiles, from valves to solid-state electronics, from horses to cars.
It's a sad and fairly telling indictment of us as a class that we are having this debate at all. We seem to have collectively reached that age where the past looks preferable to the future. I'm waiting for the "when I was a lad, we never had any of this newfangled rubbish" comments to start. Just like we had with the spinnaker debate. How many times did we see opinions stating that the big spinnaker would be "a bad thing"? As it turns out, the big spinnaker was a great move, and has generated a lot of publicity and interest in the class.
The fact is that the world is moving on, with us or without us. Carbon is probably just a stepping stone on the way to something else, in the way aluminium was the stepping stone from wood to carbon, and we should accept this as progress and keep moving. It doesn't mean we all have to go out and buy carbon masts now. It just means we have that option.
In all probability, all that will happen initially is a few of the "rock stars" will move over and begin developing rigs. Some of them will be in front of you and me, but they were anyway. Some of them will go a little faster, most probably won't for a season or two whilst they get used to the rigs. In due course, the demand will bring the price in line with alloy. In due course the price of alloy will creep up as the manufacturers try to obsolete it as a material. In ten years time, the new "hyperthingy" spars will be all the rage and the debate will begin again.
Lets not forget who we are and where we came from. When I started sailing 505's they were without equal, they were the sexiest thing in the dinghy park. OK, they were seen as expensive, and still are, but it was still the class everyone aspired to. Now we are rapidly becoming just another dinghy among the masses. There are sexier classes out there. If we stand still too long we are in danger of becoming "ordinary".
Andy Williams
GBR8694
From: Stergios Papadakis
Sent: 3 Juni 2003 15:04
To: 505world-list
Subject: Re: 505 future
Norman Brandon wrote:
<snip>
> As one local skipper commented for every hour spent on the water
> there is an hour working on the boat on land.
>
> The class could give some thought to tightening up the design rules so that
> it is a much stricter one design, and MAKE THE BOAT SIMPLER.
<snip>
> I appreciate this may not be in the spirit of the class to date, but it
> might make it more appealing to students coming in as older boats
> would still have competitive gear.
I address both these comments and those of Matthew Hansen, whose post I have deleted but who had
similar sentiments.
I bet we could make the class a lot more popular by putting a 50 HP outboard on the back with
a steering station at the diagonal bulkhead.
My example is extreme, but judging by the number of jetskis and small powerboats we see on the water
you know this is true. I don't feel that we need to make the 505 class the most popular in the world at
any cost. It is not just the 505 hull shape that keeps me sailing the boat. I like that I can decide
that it would be nice to have on-the-water adjustability of some aspect of
sail trim, and then I can design and install a system to do it. I like that I can make my own CB and rudder
if I feel like it, to whatever shape I might like.
I haven't yet, but I might. I like working on my boat.
Perhaps it is possible to make the rig simpler and still have the same sailing characteristics, but I suspect
not. It takes significant sail shape changes to make it possible to trapeze in 7 knots and still be balanced
and sailing well in 20, much less 35. I've sailed other boats where 10 seconds after the start you knew that
your shrouds were in the wrong hole, and there was nothing you could do about it except watch the fleet sail away.
In a lot of races, having an adjustable rig doesn't matter, but in some it does. Personally, the extra work is worth
it to me.
Obviously, I'd like to have more boats at every regatta I go to. But not at any cost. If I wanted a strict
one-design, I'd sell the 505 and buy one.
Stergios
From: Chris Thorne
Sent: 7 June 2003 19:38
To: 505 World Announce
Subject: 505 Class - the future
It has been a few days since a flurry of mails concerning the marketing of
the class, seemingly prompted by the current ballot on carbon spars. A lot
of good points were made, but also some that were either wrong or missed the
mark.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We need one class association internationally":
We have one already! Under our constitution individuals first become a member of the International Association, which then entitles them to join
the national association of their choice. Arguably the Americans are the
only 505 nation to have got it right, as they do not have a "National Association" just an "American Section". The only practical organisational
change we could make is to require individuals to pay their subs to International, with the International office then remitting the "top up fee"
required by the national body to each national secretary. In investigating
the possibility of setting the Association up to take credit cards, this is
one solution I have identified that would give the volume of income necessary to justify the annual fee payable to an organisation like
Worldpay. If this could be married up to a member maintained database on
the web then the process could be highly automated, although it would still
involve the secretary and treasurer in additional work.
Apart form this it is difficult to see how greater centralisation would work. At the open forum discussion in Fremantle, fleets that had grown were
asked to explain how they did it. Although there were some important differences (emphasising the need for people to respond to the opportunities
on their patch rather than apply the same approach everywhere) one common
thread was that fleet growth involved getting people into a boat and then
supporting them on the water and socially. This cannot be done by a central
team. We have to have effective organisations delivering sailing to our
existing and prospective members on the ground. The international association has support and co-ordination role, but the implementation can
only be organised locally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It takes too long to make a change"
An organisation can only change at the pace permitted by its members. It
took us five years from Krister Bergstrom first suggesting that a new spinnaker should be considered to it coming into use because there was
initially a lot of scepticism, people had lots of ideas about what the parameters should be and we voted to have a trail period. The IEC decided
to bring a proposal to the 2001 AGM to abolish the ban on carbon spars. The
AGM rejected it but wanted a further investigation undertaken and a detailed
report brought back to the next AGM. It was and it was approved and has now
gone to ballot. In each case the officers could only move at the pace required by the members, which is right when it comes to major decisions
affecting the Measurement Rules of the boat.
It is not the same for minor changes. The IRC decided late last summer that
the Rule concerning additional thwarts and bridge decks in the boats was
confusing and did not achieve its objectives. A proposal to amend it was
passed at the AGM on 11 December, ballot papers sent out on 21 December and
the ballot approved on 28 February. Nothing in our rules prevents quick
decisions being made, they just put proper democratic safeguards in place.
Since 2001 we have also split the old Championship Rules into Rules and Guidelines. The core Rules would need an AGM vote to change, but the IGC
reviews the Guidelines every year in the light of feedback from the previous
year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Carbon Spars will not make the boat more enjoyable to sail or make more
people join the class"
I think this is pretty much indisputable (with the possible exception that
boats with carbon masts are less likely turn upside down after a capsize).
However, it misses the point. When voting people need to ask themselves not
whether carbon spars are faster, sexier, stronger or whether they would go
and buy one next year, but whether it is logical to still maintain a ban on
their use twenty years after they first appeared and when the trend in sailing over the next ten years will be away from aluminium towards not only
carbon but other composites. Do we want to be part of that trend or play
catch up later?
The cost issue is irrelevant. At present you can spend USD 12,000 on a new
polyester boat or USD 22,000 on a pre preg carbon nomex boat. The cost differential on hulls is far more significant than the differential between
an aluminium mast and a carbon one, and like it or not, the genie is out of
the bottle on that one. Also, if you bust a mast on your old USD 3,000 boat, you are not going to go out and buy a state of the art new carbon
mast, you will see what you can pick up secondhand, or if you have to buy
new you will get the cheapest available, which in some parts of the world is
not aluminium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We need to improve our marketing."
I could not agree more. Angela Stenger made this point eloquently at Fremantle and outlined some good ideas. It was agreed that we would set up
an international marketing committee to help take these forward. After the
AGM I mailed national representatives on the IGC and all national secretaries asking for nominations to help Angela. Not one has responded!
Nevertheless, since it now appears that we have others thinking along the
same lines, perhaps we can make some progress in Malmoe.
Chris Thorne
Int Sec 505 CYRA
From: Bill Green
Sent: 25 June 2003 16:02
To: 505world-list; 505usa
Subject: "Carbon Vs. Aluminum" Is Just Another Way To Dodge The Hard Questions
-By Philip Ryan and Bill Green
As the carbon vs. aluminum debate began to spread over the pages of Tank Talk and the Internet, I first became
curious, then uneasy as it turned into a shadow, then a pall a pall of carbon vs. aluminum, aluminum vs. carbon.
I felt sick, and as I panicked I realized that I was getting sucked into a black hole, a debate of mayonnaise vs.
mustard at an assisted living center for old sailors.
Reason gradually reestablished itself in my shaken psyche and I recognized that I had been here before and there was
good reason for concern. "Back in the day" a couple of good Samaritans got me deeply involved in the International
FJ class where I cut my teeth on sailboat racing. Ultimately serving a couple of seasons as the local fleet captain
and national class measurer, I got to see the inner workings of the organization. There were four U.S. IFJ fleets of
8 - 20 boats.
The biggest lesson I learned was to recognize the characteristics of a dying class. Nothing anyone could say or do
would have saved it; the collapse process was just too advanced. Now, there is really only one viable U.S.
fleet remaining. The boat will never disappear because of its truly remarkable sailing characteristics. The point
here is that while the 505 class looks strong and the boat will never disappear for similar reasons as the IFJ, it
has a disease, which rapidly will become fatal to the class if we donąt address the problem.
Many people have hinted at it in many different ways and I'll say it again. Both the 505 boat and the 505 class are
facing a serious case of "Jurassic" as a friend of mine calls it we and the boat are going the way of the
dinosaurs. Why?
1. Because of cost concerns, we are over emphasizing 'limit' vs. 'development' in our so-called limited
development class.
2. As a result of point 1, we unnecessarily and voluntarily gave up our status as the performance boat of choice.
3. As a result of point 2, we have joined the crowded ranks of advanced
one-design trainer boats, particularly in Europe.
4. Among these the 505 is the most expensive, so Š
5. On paper the 505 advantage is invisible. It looks like a truly bad choice to buy one because Š
6. The 505 has all of the disadvantages of a development class (expense) and all the disadvantages of a one
design (obsolete, eclipsed, passé).
7. As a result we have lost the thousands of sailors and untold millions of dollars, especially in Europe,
oriented towards sailing the fastest boat that is actively and competitively raced.
That is why we are going the way of the dinosaur or as one brand-new fleet member describes it,
"the 505 is déclassé" (meaning Średuced to or having low statusą). While many may disagree with his view, and Jesse Falsone
pointed out that "winning the 505 worlds is still among the most difficult feats in one-design sailing," when
newcomers to the class describe us this way, we have a problem.
What attitudes does the fleet have which allow this degradation to happen?
It is just like the high school football star that ends up fat and 49 years old, sacking groceries and bragging
about glory as if it were only yesterday, but he canąt even jog much less dive for a pass. He has heart
disease and doesnąt know it yet.
- Cockiness / ego-blindness. We're the best, we don't have to try, success will
come to us and we don't have to work for it. Leads to Š
- Conservatism. Again, 'limited' emphasized over 'development', or
"we're so good we don't have to improve." Leads to Š
- Stasis. This is where we as a fleet are now and it should not be a selling point. While the acceptance of the
long-luff spinnaker seems significant to an experienced 505'er, this change, as with weight reductions
or carbon spars, is nearly invisible to sailors outside the class. Very few to no changes or
"if it ainąt broke, don't fix it." Leads to Š
- Fear. This is where the IFJ fleet was when I started. Fear of change because now change is unfamiliar and
'unknown'. Meaning fear of expense, obsolete boats, expense, boat modification labor, expense, et cetera. I have
some news here; if your boat is more than five years old, chances are it is obsolete already. While a 20-year-old
Waterat can win the worlds and new pre-preg boats will be stiff for a long time, most often the cost required to
realize the potential of an old hull is nearly equal to the cost of a new boat when you factor in updated rigging,
spars, sails, etc. It is the same in all sailboat classes.
That said, the most expensive mistake you can make is letting the class die, in which case your investment is worth
exactly zilch. Fear of the unknown is very primal indeed, but also completely irrational. This all ends with Š
- 49 -n- fat, dy'in -o- heart disease, yessiree, where the IFJ fleet was when I left. The fleet has no
externally visible vitality and young people avoid us like the plague; there are already unmistakable signs of this
in the 505 fleet. The class ages and grays, shrinks and shrivels, collapses and dies. The American Section[1]
<#_ftn1> has been tracking the average age of the U.S. fleet since 1998, and has been reporting of the dire
consequences.
49 -n- fat, thatąs our 505 fleet all right. All of a sudden the countless pages devoted to lifting a 20-year ban on
composite spars, and what limitations should be imposed on them, doesnąt look so important after all.
It is time to get bypass surgery, get in shape and dive for a pass. Then we might not even need carbon Viagra.
So what do we do about it? Long overdue is the time to assess where MAJOR performance gains can be made and stop
arguing about minutia. The 505 class was built on the strength of being an exceptional craft. Today it is just
another boat because the class has not allowed the 505 to evolve with advances in technology that allow for better
sailing and a better image. I'm not advocating allowing much lighter hulls, more sail area and more righting
moment. Rather, I am advocating employing some of the efficiency advances pioneered in other classes. Materials
changes and small weight reductions make up only a fraction of a percent of total performance. We need to make
up for 30 years of apathy and lost time. It is a four-step process:
1) Look at low performance boats that perform closer to the 505 than they should, and high performance boats that
make the 505 look like a pig. Then assess the reasons for discrepancy. While none of the boats listed below are
relevant to the 505 and cannot compete with our beloved boat across a broad range of conditions, each one contains
an element within its design that could greatly benefit the 505. Consider the following (hint: the answers are
below and the obvious design elements are not the point):
- Tasar check out those performance polars! Remember, thatąs without trapeze or spinnaker inspiring.
- Scows what a low-tech dog, very heavy with flat metal sheets for blades, but we give them only a few
seconds on handicap and some are way faster and all are easier to sail. Anybody thought about torque, drive and
righting moment lately?
- Hobies now here is an over weight piece. So where does the speed come from? It is not just about the
righting moment or wetted surface area that the Hobie shares with other boats that are slow.
- Vector Vanguard is known for mediocre products, and the Vector is no exception. In spite of Vanguard, the
design shows its potential. It has approximately the same sail area, weight and beam as a 505, but somehow
generates so much apparent wind that you can double trap in as little as 8 knots. Off the wind with the kite up you
can single trap with good speed in glassy to 3 knot conditions, hmm. It will never get around the racecourse like a
505, but in some straight-line conditions, it schools us. Again, look past the obvious hull shape characteristics.
- Skiffs need I say anything? We certainly do not want to turn the 505 into a skiff, but there is definitely
something to learn beyond the SA/D, righting moment etc. I.e. bang per buck, rigging simplicity, etc.
- Inter-cats here is a really high performance boat and it will spin through a tack faster than you can cross
the boat. A tactical catamaran wow. How the hell did they accomplish that? Suddenly, even catamarans are
competing with the 505 class for sailors. Too many former 505 owners still race with us, but now own and actively
race catamarans.
- Ice boats seems irrelevant to include here but humor me. Have you ever taken one for a spin? Talk about
speed, watch out or you will blow past 70. There just ainąt no time for more than a mainsheet. All that speed and
soooo simple (it is not just the lack of friction because there are slow ice boats too). There has got to be a
lesson here.
2) Take the most powerful performance boosters and compare them to the class rules to see where the smallest class
rule change would encourage the largest jump in 505 performance (the LLS just scratches the surface). Notice that I
say jump in performance, not cost or complexity. Performance does not mean expensive or complicated unless you are
trying to squeeze that last little bit out of an already 'refined' (read: limited) system, which we all know makes
it difficult to use.
3) Dive for the pass! Or lose the game. Vote for the change. It won't be as expensive as throwing your almost new,
beautiful superboat away because there is no one to race against and no buyer. Change your boat and go have even
more fun sailing the sweetest boat on the planet.
4) Repeat before it is too late and the class is dead.
Having done an informal, intuitive assessment and sailed a lot of different boats in mixed company, I tend to think
that the basic 505 design and concept has room for vast improvements in speed, ease of handling, versatility and
rigging simplicity. The class seems steeped in the assumption that the boat has reached the apex of its potential
and is quite a refined machine. Obviously I disagree. While we have reached the limit of our primitive rig, the
true potential of the 505 remains largely untapped and unexplored.
The goal of the 505 has long been maximum performance for a broad range of people across all sailing conditions, and
any changes to the boat should uphold this principal. Changes that require larger crews for small increases in
performance are negative in all regards.
The first baby step towards saving ourselves from extinction is to legalize fully battened sails, as Larry Tuttle[2]
<#_ftn2> and others more qualified than I have suggested. This is a pattern in the boats listed above. These
boats also tend to have the resulting practical, simple, inexpensive rotating rigs with massively lowered
aerodynamic drag and significantly increased drive all without any heeling moment penalty.
Yes a rig that rotates, rakes and bends can be very simple, but it cannot work without full-length battens. While
the 505 rules technically allow rotating rigs, the prohibition of full-length battens makes a rotating rig
virtually impossible. That is the only reason why we are not all sailing with rotating masts now. It has nothing to
do with increased complexity or cost, as many believe.
After the fallout from that little gem has settled, let the development begin limited but steady and strong
towards a cleansed, revitalized, growing class based on the powerful principles on which it was established.
Just think, separation bubbles are already old fashioned, slow and unnecessary, as is water in the cockpit. But we
still have them and many other "special (as in short bus) features" that we put up with on the 505.
Want to drop all-up racing weight of the 505? It will be significantly cheaper to remove unnecessary water from the
boat than necessary material from the hull.
A 505 without separation bubbles and unladen by a 30-kilo swamp in the cockpit is still a 505, only more so faster, simpler and more controllable in bigger wind. It is closer to the
original Westell Caneton/505 dream. And that is a performance increase that will be visible to sailors in other
classes.
Oh, by the way, being a good sailor is about more than making the boat go fast.
I have whole classes of beginner students who have yet to discover what it means to turn the boat turtle, and the first lesson is capsize drills.
While a one-percent failure rate is acceptable, the mast should never dip below the waterąs surface. If the water is
deep enough to keep the blades off the bottom, it is deep enough for racing. So if you are interested in keeping
costs down, practice your capsize drills.
[1] <#_ftnref1> A sincere thank you is due Jesse Falsone for all his excellent research tracking changes in average
class age.
[2] <#_ftnref2> https://www.int505.org/tuttle01.htm
From: Jens Hufnagel
Sent: den 25 June 2003 23:28
To: Bill Green
Cc: 505world
Subject: Re: "Carbon Vs. Aluminum" Is Just Another Way To Dodge The Hard Questions
Bill,
this is the best I ever read during the last weeks of discussion. In Germany we still have a constant fleet size but feel the depression that is waiting for us. There are less young people being engaged in any kind of common activity incl. sailing.
After a long period of thinking I voted NO to carbon masts and so will most of the Germans.
The boat has become too complex and expensive. So people decide either not to sail or choose more simple boats that do not demand as many efforts and money as our beautiful boat does.
The new kite and especially the new course surprisingly (for me) made the class more attractive for beginners as experienced 505 sailors (49 and fat)are too heavy downwind and also have to learn downwind tactics. This advantage unfortunately does not appear to people outside the class. "The spi is bigger so the crew needs to be bigger" is what everybody thinks.
A full batten main will have a different effect and attract more new sailors. It is up to date, will last longer and therfore could be even cheaper.
We have been discussing this frequently here in germany and I would definetely say YES to this modifictaion.
A second step should be a jib that is 1/2 meter longer.
It would be great if we could avoid the complicated raking technology, which would make our boats much cheaper.
I would like to try it. Does anyone know a class that has a similar main and jib?
BR
Jens
GER 8730
From: Dave [[email protected]]
Sent: den 25 June 2003 23:49
To: 505usa; 505world-list
Subject: Re: death? was: carbon vs alum
I hear a lot of people saying we are a dying class, and that we need to fix this.
Now that may be true, and looks like it is.
*But*, my question is what class is thriving? (dinghy-wise) Where people are buying boats, not clubs buying their own 'fleet' and
chartering them out to the members.
Sunfish, Laser, and Opti will always be doing well. But notice all singlehanded? Team comitiment is a tough problem to overcome. I see a
lot of turn-over or in some cases people almost *always* looking for a crew for a regatta. (might be US only on that end. I don't follow the
other countries that closely on the local level)
420's seems fairly strong, but a kids boat.
What adult class is doing well? 5-10% growth? Aren't most dying off?
You know, maybe that jetski that takes no effort or thinking to ride and goes SO much faster, and is cheaper overall is a way to go?
"Spend $20,000 (US) and work how hard to go how slow? "
Unfortunatly, I think sailing is on its way out.
The real problem is how sailing is viewed, especially dinghy sailing.
Here in the US, dinghys are for kids and the keelboats are for grown-ups. (bigger is better)
Whatever rule change we make isn't going to bring people in to the 505 class, so why not do what *we* want?
(yes, I know i'm gonna be razzed bigtime for this, but there are points here)
Dave
"Man invented the slowest form of transportation; the sailboat.
Then decided to race it"
-unknown author.
5o5 USA 4936 & 8645
Lifes a reach then you gybe
From: Bill Green
Sent: 26 June 2003 00:25
To: Dave; 505usa; 505world-list
Subject: Re: 505world: Re: death? was: carbon vs alum
Hi Dave,
I think you bring up some great points. To my knowledge no classes are really growing, but new classes spring up all the time and seem to do okay.
It is entirely possible, and somewhat likely, that there are fewer potential
sailors as more kids turn to jet skis.
But consider this: Philip Ryan, the main article author teaches sailing in
Colorado (not exactly a sailing mecca). Over the past two years, interest in
the program has more than doubled and all available spots were taken by March. The race program went from about four kids interesting in learning to
race to an entirely separate program (also full). They already have reservations for the race and sailing programs and three lakes for next
summer.
What happened to the original four kids? Thanks largely to the efforts of
Mark Angliss, three of them race 505s now.
You mentioned a few boats in your post: Sunfish, Laser, Opti and 420. While
it is true that three of them are singlehand boats, something else they all
share is low cost. I don't see people flocking to the Finn.
I'm sure there are many people waiting to jump up and scream that you can
buy a perfectly decent 505 for the cost of a new Laser. True, but you can
campaign a Laser for much less money than a 505. In the current economic
conditions I have to think that is part of the equation. I will admit flat
out that I had to skip the PCCs, NAs, and Midwinters this year because I
can't afford to race the boat. Ski and bike racing are much less expensive.
Where am I going with all this? Simply the competition for other sailing
classes, mono- and multi-hull, as well as disposable income, are at an all
time high. There are more sailing classes actively recruiting sailors than
there are sailors to fill these classes. When I started sailing the boat in
1997, I had to choose between the C-15 (very active locally), Laser, 470,
Fireball and 505. Compare that list with all the boats competing for 505
sailors. All the above plus Vector, Inter-Cat, 29er, 49er, RS boats, Laser
3000, 4000, 5000, et al. I don't care if you think the 505 is a better boat
with a stronger global presence than the other boats. If it is too expensive, not strong locally and lacking cool/image factor than it won't be
considered.
The 505 is not dead yet. Far from it, and I didn't mean to suggest that it
is dead. However, if people pass over our boat for other classes, we will
disappear. There are reasons, some valid, others not, but all important, why
people pass over the 505 for other boats. We need to look at how to make the
505 a better boat. Not necessarily just faster (I have heard more than one
person say the sensation of speed on a 505 is just like that of a skiff),
but easier to sail, less expensive to buy and campaign.
As the Volvo commercials say, "We think about that, then we build."
Best,
Bill
USA 7204
From: Josh Johnston
Sent: 26 June 2003 02:37
To: Bill Green
Cc: Dave; 505usa; 505world-list
Subject: Re: death? was: carbon vs alum
I must also agree that this was a very well written piece. It certainly
made me rethink my conservative position on class change. When did we get
the idea that adding performance means adding complexity? I really hope
that a lot of people out there who know much more about the boat than I do
will work to make it the performance leader again.
As for bringing in kids...
as a university Junior, I know alittle more about my peers than you old folks (sorry guys.) There's a lot of things out there competing for the
young people besides jet skis. For a few thousand bucks, I could buy a professionally competitive mountain bike, kayak, or pair of skis... or an
obsolete 505.
While most folks in my neck of the woods (Idaho) choose noe of the many other options out there, a friend of mine and I went in for a 505.
The simple fact is that sailboats are expensive compared to the competition for young people's time, and most of us don't have the money
to pump into ANY dinghy class.
Why does the class need the kids? These aren't the people with the money.
Sailing was cheaper in days bygone. Back then, the vitality came from the
young people. Nowadays, vitality needs to come from the folks with the money, who will be older. There's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't
neccesarily mean the death of the class.
All of the friends I've taken out in my 505 have fallen in love with dinghy sailing. This is the key to preserving the class. We need to get
more people on the water so they can learn that sailing is more fun that
riding a jet ski will ever be. The focus shouldn't be on young people, it
should be on people who are capable of preserving the class (ie capable of
footing the bill for new boats.)
- Josh Johnston
USA 5766
From: Marco Giraldi
Sent: 26 June 2003 10:02
To: 505World
Subject: 505 future
Gentlemen
From the messages written by Bill, Dave, etc, it seems evident that the class needs a clear objective and afterward a clear strategy on how to achieve the objective. Making changes, especially expensive changes without that in mind can be disastrous for the class.
The objective needs to be defined based on the fact that the dinghy market is shrinking and that the boat cannot appeal to everybody, in other words the class must find its niche, especially considering that it cannot hope in external help/incentives since is not an Olympic class boat.
So what are the key success factors for 505? What are the weak points that need to be addressed?
May be we should start by having a market research survey among the class members.
It is important that we understand our class and the common denominators, for example I have seen many times statements such as "make the boat more simple", what is the meaning of this? do we need to eliminate many control lines cluttering the boat, so that the boat looks cleaner and less scary? or do we need to be able to adjust more easily the boat to the different conditions? For me is the latter, as I would hate to go out rigged for 5 knots and be stuck with such set-up when suddenly the wind increases to 15 knots.
Best regards
Marco Giraldi
From: Bill Green
Sent: 26 June 2003 15:54
To: Marco Giraldi; 505World-list
Subject: Re: 505 future
Hi all,
Somehow I think the point of the article got lost amid the discussion. The 505 is a great boat. Any changes made to the boat need to be the result of the class’ desire to improve speed, efficiency of the rig and seat of the pants fun.
I hope that no one is suggesting saddling the boat with more rules to make it more one-design or that market research should determine how the boat looks.
All I’m suggesting, and most of the responses I’ve seen agree (not all posted on the list), is an infusion of technology that has been around for 20+ years could make the 505 a much more enjoyable boat to sail for all sailors in all wind conditions. I think part of the expense and vast array of lines we have in the boats are the result of trying to control an outdated rig.
Bill
From: Mark Stowell
Sent: 26 June 2003 16:21
To: 505world-list
Subject: RE: 505 future
My two bobs worth.
1. Changing the boat other than making it noticeably faster (ie Larger spinnaker) is not neccessary. Maybe fully battened mains which will make them last a lot longer, maybe minor variation to jib pattern- lower clew?
2. Before we do the full inward internal analysis of what the "class wants" is to clarify exactly why we have over 100 boats at every worlds, and everyone who attends at least plans to enter another one. Any changes must not jeopardise this formula, as it works!
I believe that the main reasons it works so well are:
A) that the PEOPLE in the fleet, and the fleet hierachy maintain the stability of the class and organisation, and have done so over many years.
B) The boat is also fun to sail which is a major contributor.
C) The depth of knowledge on how to make the boat go fast is pretty balanced worldwide, and easily accessible.
D) No one has any major competetive edge based on $ spent. This is a very important issue.
Have a look at the Hobie 16 ft class. This is a 2 person, strictly one design cat, which is extremely popular world wide, and also gets large turnouts at world championships, where people also have a really good time. 505's are probably the monohull equivalent.
3. It is a fact that there are many other distractions/attractions and sports available for kids, so not as many will take to sailing, but there will always be those who have it in their blood and will get into it sometime.
To get into 505's (or other sailing) years ago we all used to have time to take out a potential new sailor for a practice sail, or 2 or 3. These days many of us are a lot busier, so unlikely to take out someone new to the fleet or sport, except for a race when very short of a crew.
This could be a significant factor in the drop off in new sailors.
We've had good fleets for so long in many places, that it hasnt been neccessary to make the effort.
If every skipper/boat committed to take out 2 new people every season, for a practice sail, (not just a race which can be a bit intimidating first up), then for a few beers afterwards Im sure we would see results. Remember, at least 50% of the fun is the social side of the experience.
Changing the boat is not a panacea to getting new sailors- its a people game, and a social outing as well as some friendly yacht racing.
regards
Mark
AUS 8798
From: Jim Tuten
Sent: den 26 June 2003 17:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 505's vs jetski's: was Future of the class
There are some very good comments regarding the future of the class and I have to jump in with my 0.02. Major changes to the boat are not needed. The class is doing well as a developmental class. Changes are made, slowly. Go back and look at a 3000 to 4000 series boat, especially the rigging and adjustability. They worked, but were not nearly as adjustable or forgiving on the water, and they were fun to sail.
At the same time the boat is not a rigid one design using 1950's technology. Look at our blades, they beat the snot out of an overgrown stainless steel meat cleaver used by some "One Design" classes.
As for visibility of racing, this is where the purists have hurt our PR efforts.
By purists I mean those that demand a race be held far enough off-shore so that all the near shore effects on wind and waves are removed. Unfortunately, this also removes the PR possibility except for those who have boats to go out and watch the races. It also means that racing is a much bigger effort as frequently a major sail is necessary just to get to the race course. This may be fine as a requirement for major races, but is it needed for all races? Oh, I forgot all races in a 505 are major races!
As for the comments on making the boat "simpler" and with fewer strings, a strength of the boat is the "strings". A currently rigged 505 is adjustable ON THE WATER for virtually all conditions, much more so than most boats. And it can be fun to sail in all those conditions. Some of us enjoy this flexibility. If I want to just go fast I can get something with a motor (and won't have to worry about the nasty harbor currents). If I want to go fast with a challenge, then a 505 is great. Plus it's wonderful to sail in light to medium conditions as well. I was around our One Design club many a day when people wouldn't go out because of light air, i.e. they didn't have enough sail area, or on heavy days, when I heard "we come in over 18 knts because our rigs won't take it". And I just sailed the afternoon in my 505, because I could, and it was fun.
Sailing is an expensive hobby so don't plan on expecting young kids or people without money to buy a boat, its counterproductive, sign them up as crew instead.
If they like it they will crew until they get a job and the ability to buy a boat. Its all about priorities. How many young people are buying $20k cars?, lots of them, so if they want they can buy a $20k boat, or a $10k car and a $10K boat.
What we need is good local fleets to keep the social side active. Unfortunately if I want one here in Charleston SC I will have to start it, which will happen after a few other life's priorities can be managed.
Jim Tuten
US8265
From: Aaron Ross, President American 505 Section
Sent: 27 June 2003 23:00
To: List 505
Subject: RE: "Carbon Vs. Aluminum" Is Just Another Way To Dodge The Hard Questions
Forwarded by request of Mike Holt and Craig Perez, who replied to a local
list.
-Aaron Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Holt
To: Craig S Perez; Bill Green; 505west-list
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: "Carbon Vs. Aluminum" Is Just Another Way To Dodge The Hard
Questions
All,
Everyone (Larry, Bill, Craig etc) writing on this subject all make great points.
But, the reality is, no product sells without effort. With effort, you can sell anything.
We need to concentrate on 'marketing and selling' our 'product'. We have to make sure we go to the best venues, at the best times and let everyone know this is what we do. Keep recycling unused boats into the market and
make sure people use their boats, which they will if we go to good venues at the right time.
We have to make sure the 'market' knows where we go for our World Championships, Santa Cruz, Perth etc and the level of racing we get when we go
there.
Craig's points about the debriefs are important, people can and do get discouraged if they get hammered every time they go out. Maybe we should adopt a 'buddy system' where first helps last etc...
But the important point is market what we have, after all people buy all sorts of useless crap based totally on glossy marketing campaigns.
Good racing,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig S Perez
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:38 PM
To: Bill Green; 505west-list
Subject: RE: "Carbon Vs. Aluminum" Is Just Another Way To Dodge The Hard
Questions
Interesting view point...However, the changes you suggest would change the boat into something else other then a 505. If I follow your reasoning ($), I should just buy a different style of boat (49er, I14, etc.). The hard part of this discussion is not about changing the 505 to "keep up with the new kids on the block", it is the fact that all good things have a life span of a finite period. No matter how we might try, we as a fleet can't stop the technology advances in both materials and design.
My answer is, ride the wave as long as possible while having a great time doing it...The fleet (the people) is what makes this boat great, not just the boat it-self.
The competition is top notch, the boats are evenly matched, the boats last a long time, and everyone to a person enjoys the way the boat handles different conditions. If everyone who sails the boat is having a good time, why change the boat?
If they want something faster, or sexier, buy into one of the newer classes. It is that simple. Keep the 505 a 505...
Now, How do we make our already great boat and fleet better? Make sure that the venues that the championships are sailed in have 1) great sailing, 2) great facilities, 3) great vacation options, 4) sponsors to help with costs (i.e. Hobie does this best), and 5)"debrifing sessions" that help the whole fleet get better and faster, and support the newer and younger sailors...Oh did I mention that we already do this? That is why this fleet and boat are the envy of the dinghy world...Sometimes the hardest thing to do is the same thing over and over again. We don't want to do something different for different sake...I don't think we have to.
However, there will be a time when our beloved 505 will no longer be the best boat and it will slowly die off like the FJ. Sad, but the way all things progress with history...So once again I say "Ride the Wave" and enjoy it while it lasts...
Craig Perez
From: Tom Bojland
Sent: 1 July 2003 10:57
To: 505 world-list; 505 mailing list dk
Subject: 505 Future - President comments!
Dear all
Just back from the Nordic Championship in Finland, and found my mailbox in "overload".
I will try to comment the concerns that has been shown in the mails.
First of all - I do not believe we have a boat problem (no matter which color our mast has)!
We (and the rest of the sailing) has a marketing problem.
I have been in 2 man dinghy sailing since 1978, sailed a lot of classes including national, Olympic (470) and international ones, and when I started in this, there was simply more sailors (at least in my part of the world). In the Scandinavia we had more active 2 man dinghies compared to now and the fleets where the double size. The trend in keelboat was the same. In Denmark we have a big "round the island" race every year, in the 80's more than 2600 keelboats sailed that race - it was sailed 2 weeks ago, 266 boats entered!!!
Where are all the sailors??? well just a clue - retired from boatracing and playing golf - its cheaper and you don't get wet!
I think ISAF and the national sailing associations know about this and they are trying very hard to turn the development for sailing so it will go up again.
Choosing the 49' for the Olympics was one step, many national sailing associations choose 29' as a youth boat these years - that's another step, and personally I think these actions is the best that can happen for our sport, and that leads me to where we should see our class in it all.
I see the 505 class as the end of the "foodchain" in 2 man dinghy sailing.
The 505 Class is perfect for the experienced sailor that has ambitions about sailing against the best in the world but don't have time/money for an Olympic campaign (hit by wife, kids, job!!).
The 505 is relatively easy to sail compared to double trapeze boats, the rig gives possibility to both light and heavy crews can be competive in the Class.
Its quite cheap to campaign the 505 compared to other international classes, you are not doing anything wrong if you buy a 10 year old boat, its perfect for even top-level racing, try to do that in any other international trapeze dinghy class!!
I can add 10 other good things about the boat, but you have heard it all before.
So how do we take a bigger marketshare in a market that these days are getting smaller?
Personally I think we should work together with other classes to turn the development so the market gets bigger.
Every year we see a lot of kids starting in the optimist and other beginner classes, a percentage of these go to the youth classes and another percentage of these goes to a senior class (like the 505) - We have to get the percentages up!
That is a hard job - when you are between 15 & 20 years - there is a lot of opportunities for you, other sports, education, computers and not to forget parties and the other sex!!! and the problem is - many of those young kids don't even know that you actually can sail a dinghy after you are grown up - why?? because we are not god enough to tell them!!!
The last couple of years the Danish 505 Class has started to join youth regattas, and what I discovered by placing my boat in the middle of the 200
Optimist dinghies in the boat park, is that they don't know what a 505 is, but when they look down in it, and after that they se the boat on the water, and say - woooowww that looks great and fun - and hopefully a bigger percentage of these kids say "hey - I want to do dinghy sailing when I'm grown up" (and they will remember the 505 as the rocket ship they saw as kids)
That leads me to the fact, that we have to work together with other classes so we (because we are in the end of the "foodchain") needs to have sailors through the youth and national senior classes.
How do we do it???
Basically - it's quite simple - be visible to the potential customers - you can have the best product in the world, if no one knows it wont sell, but if you are a good salesman you can sell nearly everything!!!
We cannot run multimillion$ campaigns in all this worlds sailing magazines (and the young sailors don't read them anyway)!
But we can:
Sail our regattas together with classes with our potential customers (on the same course!!!)
We can stay together with those guys at the boatpark - yes we can even talk with them (something I always notice when I'm sailing big regattas, people don't "mingle" between the classes - and that's wrong!!!!) - have a beer with them, maybe you even make a new friend.
We can use every opportunity to give these guys a ride!!
We can use every opportunity to get these guys name and mailaddress and send them a nice letter with information and urge them to join our mailing list!!
And when these guys finally enter the 505 class, make sure they will stay by mentoring/look after them, and help them to be better quickly!
And of course, after a regatta - MAKE THAT REPORT and send it to your local newspaper/boatmagazine together with a nice picture - sometimes we are lucky and they put it in the paper next day!!!
I know it sounds simple and we already do this, but we can do much better - this is a personal thing - if you can share enthusiasm then someone will join you (history tells) if you keep you mouth shut and hide in a corner of the boatpark noone will join you!!!
Maybe someone has noticed that I haven't mentioned the development of the 505 design yet. I don't think that is the key to success if the boat is 1 or 2 % faster. The fact is, that the biggest 2 man classes in the part of the world I'm coming from (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Germany) ALL are heavier, slower and coast nearly as much as a 505, but those guys in theese classes are very good at sharing their enthusiasm to new sailors, and they still sail with white sails and silver masts. All the new one design boats which have been designed the last 10 years are sold only in small numbers and are sailed only locally (except for the 49' which is Olympic, and that's another ballgame, and the 29' which is supported by the local sailing associations as a youth boat). Maybe I'm wrong, but I dont think we are that much different here from the rest of the world.
This brings me back to Finland - 4 years ago, the finnish class was dead, 2 years ago there was heard some jokes about the finnish performance at the worlds in Cascais - now guys - now they have 25 boats and some of them are going really fast!!! - why?? they shared their enthusiasm and started with cheap used boats helping each other up!!
This is just an example, its done before in other parts of the world, and it will be done again!!
I just had a quick look this morning at ISAF international classes, we are without any question the biggest international 2 man high performance dinghy in the world, then I had a quick look at the Malmo website - 87 boats so
far, and still climbing - the biggest 505 regatta ever in Scandinavia!!!
The work starts locally - and that's you gyes out there who is going to do this, based on the frame from the international and national class associations.
Some details.
I think Tim Bogers idea about a questionnaire to young sailors are good. The Danish nationals this year are together with Europe and Laser (perfect classes to show the 505 to) and I think we will try the idea out there.
Marco Giraldi also had some good ideas about our strategy to the market and defining our strength, weaknesses, opportunities and threats - I think we all got some of it in our head, but we need to get it down to paper so we all know which way "the horse should walk" We will work in this in the association, but all inputs are welcome.
Some mentioned that the age of the typical 505 sailor is going up, yes and? - In the rest of the society everybody lives longer and are active in the third age (look at Marcel Buffet!!), why shouldn't that affect us, as long as we are taken care of the young ones to continiue with dinghy sport.
I hope this make just a bit sence to you (maybe the longest mail I have ever written in English) but I welcome all inputs, questions, god ideas and actions.
Now I want a debate about the European Circuit, please speak up, we will have to deal with this at the open meeting at the AGM in Malmö.
PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO YOUR LOCAL MAILING LISTS (INCL. GERMANY & FRANCE)
Tom Bojland
President
International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association
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