From: Chris Thorne
Sent: 17 november 2002 14:39
To: 505 World List
Subject: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
This message is posted to the mailing list on behalf of former World Champion Joergen Schoenherr:
90% OF ALL DOUBLEHANDED DINGHIES CAN ONLY BE HELMED
COMPETITIVELY BY LESS THAN 15% OF ALL POTENTIAL MALE SAILORS!
Having followed the active debate on the Internet regarding carbon spars and
the weight of our boats, I think that our focus have moved to a wrong direction if we to focus on the growth of the class. I believe that we
should take a much more professional and commercial oriented perspective of
our situation. I know that everybody will not appreciate this but I'm sure
it will help the class in the future.
Normally if you want to sell a product, you want to sell it on a market where the market space is as big as possible (highest number of potential
customers) and where there is as little competition (from competing products) as possible.
Taking this into consideration you have to find out which kind of products
you want to sell to attract the highest number of customers.
Our "typical customer" is a male, helmsman ageing from 20 to 60 years, living in a western country. The reason why I mention helmsmen and no crews
is the fact that most boats are bought and owned by skippers (even though
505's often are owned by crews or both together). The reason why I mention
"western country" is because people here are heavier than people from other
areas. This "typical" person normally weights between 75 - 85 kilos when he
is 20-30 years and 80 to 90 when he is 30 - 60 years.
I presume today the ideal weight for 505 skippers are about 70 kilos or less, after we have changed the racecourse with a higher percentage of
downwind sailing (minus one upwind leg and finishing downwind) and less tight reaching (where you might want to have a heavier helmsman) as a
result.
If we want to attract the "typical customer" there is a big difference between his normal weight and our class' ideal weight for a skipper. Our
ideal weight is more suitable for women in the same age group.
If we look at the market space for 2 handed dinghies we will find out that
almost 90 % of all existing international dinghies do not fit the "typical
customer". They are all for young light kids or girls, weighting a lot less
than the "typical customer".
I believe that this is one of the reasons why many sailors drop out of dinghies and get into keelboats when they grow older (and heavier). After a
few years in keelboats, they find out that sailing becomes too boring and
too expensive and therefore they often quit sailing completely.
Because of this, my conclusion is, if we can change our class rules a bit,
so they fit the "typical customer" better, we could put our class into a
much bigger marketplace and then attract a lot more people. The fantastic
about being here is, that there is almost no competition from any other dinghies.
But how do we do this, without making too radical changes to our beautiful
boat and without chasing all the present sailors out of the class?
My idea is quite simple. I think we should give skippers who are heavier
than the ideal weight for our class, a weight bonus of the overall weight of
the boat. We could for instance decide that, all helmsmen weighting more 75
kg would get a 50 % weight bonus, based on his exceeding weight from the 75
kilos, on the overall weight of the boat. The calculation would then look
like this if the helmsman were weighting 85 kilos:
85 kg - 75 kg = 10,0 kg
50% bonus of 10 kg = 5,0 kg
Normal minimum weight for 505's 127,5 kg (127,4)
Racing weight for a boat sailing with a 85 kg skipper 122,5 kg.
Boat builders and others have often claimed that we can build the boat at
least 10 kilos lighter without loosing the quality and the strength of the
boat. Therefore we could make a maximum bonus of for instance 10 kilos corresponding to a skipper of 95 kilos. Some teams will of course have to
change boats because they can not make the boat lighter, but there will always be buyers, because their boats can be sold to teams with lighter
helmsmen. Maybe the price of heavy 2ndhand boats will drop a little, but
that will only help the class to attract younger (read lighter) helmsmen to
the class. The main thing is, that all the boats we have now, will still
have a reasonable value because there will always be light buyers who can
race the boats competitively (opposite of what would happen if we make a
general reduction of the overall weight of the boat).
The reason that I suggest a 50 % bonus (instead of 100% bonus) is of course
the fact that the weight of the skipper to some degree helps a little to
keep the boat flat going upwind.
Of course we have to make easy administrative ways to do this but I think
this is easily done with standard visible weight correctors (of instance 500
grams each), a visible weight indication on the boats and reliable scales to
weight the skippers (if they want to have the bonus). Other classes and other sports are doing this without any trouble so I sure we can live with
this, taking the benefits into consideration.
Arguments for the "Heavy Helmsmen Bonus System" are:
-
Place the boat in a marketplace with much more potentiality (about 90%
instead of 15% of all potential male helmsmen)
-
Place the boat in a marketplace where there
no competition from other classes
-
Makes it easier to find the right team partner, because a wider team weight
differentiation will be competitive
-
Makes racing more fare
-
Create a new demand for new boats
-
Attracts, for a period, more younger teams to the class because the price of
2ndhand boats might drop a little for a period
-
Creates new focus on our class in the media with publicity as a benefit.
Arguments against the "Heavy Helmsmen Bonus System" are:
So in my opinion the arguments for are overwhelming. So let's go for the 90
% instead of the 15% and let's se the class grow again. With our boat we
will never beat the new dinghies if we are looking for the same "customer
profile" anyway.
If you have any comments to this idea, I would be happy to answer them.
Thank you.
-----------------------------
Joergen Schoenherr
"Lendrumgaard"
Brinken 126
4671 Strøby Strand
Denmark
tel. private (+45) 56 26 66 37
tel. work (+45) 56 65 64 65
mobil (+45) 40 25 64 94
e-mail private [email protected]
e-mail work [email protected]
From: Steven Lieberman
Sent: 17 november 2002 16:41
To: Chris Thorne; 505 World List
Subject: An American Perspective on Reducing Minimum Weight
This commentary is from my perspective as a relatively recent (4 year) but
active member of the American Section. I strongly believe that lowering
minimum weight would have disastrous consequences for the US 505 class. As
I recall, US 505 membership is the second or third highest national total
for the class, so a negative effect on US 505's would have negative
ramifications for the entire class.
People looking to get into 505's in the US face relatively the same choices
I faced 4 years ago when we joined: buy a boat that can be raced but won't
be competitive for $2,000--6,000, find a competitive older "superboat" for
$6,000--11,000 (or buy a relatively new, competitive boat without the proven
longevity of a Waterat, such as a newer epoxy Rondar in the upper end of
this price range), or buy a new boat for $12,500--30,000. Many of the older
superboats have an indefinite life-span at the highest competitive level but
don't have the ability to shed much weight--they are currently at or
slightly above/below the current minimum (without correctors). Lowering the
minimum weight would transform these currently competitive boats into no
longer competitive boats.
While good 505 sailors can sail slow boats faster than not-so-good 505
sailors can sail state-of-the-art equipment, most people with the
discretionary income to buy a "competitive" boat will want to minimize their
disadvantages and start with competitive equipment. While this might be
dismissed as perhaps pyschologically meaningful but without much effect on
actual results, what other rationale would have me buy new sails? I want my
performance -- however poor -- to reflect my ability, devoid of excuses such
as "my sails were blown out" or "my boat was too heavy". I want to learn
and improve, operating on a (relatively) "level playing field" for
equipment.
Lowering the minimum weight will significantly lessen the value of my fully
competitve (but for the current driver!), mid-1980's Waterat, in which I've
invested thousands of dollars to have Guck Inc. transform the boat from bags
to a launcher, refinish the hull (which was absorbing water and
delaminating), deck, and blades, along with completely replacing the running
and standing rigging. While I can afford the loss, I'd be angry. If I sold
my boat, who would want to buy a "non-competitive" (but relatively
expensive) 505? I'd also think twice about buying a new boat: I might just
decide to sail (but not race) my 505.
In the discussions about shifting to a longer luff spinnnaker, a very sound
principle was consistently articulated in US discussions: we didn't want to
obsolete the "base" of existing boats. When people raised objections about
whether their boat could be adapted to a LLS (e.g., Dave Eberhard citing
restrictions on launcher tube dimensions), people went to considerable
lengths to empirically address the point. My reading of the extensive email
traffic and discussions at the AGM suggests that the decision to adapt the
LLS was based on the twin beliefs that (i) performance would be
significantly enhanced, making the boat more fun to sail, and (ii) existing
boats could easily adapt for low cost (about $200, courtesy of Ethan Bixby's
willingness to adapt older kites to the LLS specs plus the cost of a new
halyard and external block).
Almost all boats in Fleet 19 (Mid-Atlantic, one of the largest and most
active in the US) have converted to the LLS; one race without one (while
mine was on order) convinced me of both the competitive need AND the
improved performance associated with the LLS. Some of us purchased new
kites, others in the fleet had Ethan recut their existing kites. No one had
their boat made obsolete. I believe this was a positive change for the
class, exactly as anticipated.
In stark contrast with the change to longer luff spinnakers, lowering
minimum weight would also have a clearly anticipated -- but highly
negative -- effect. It's hard to think of any move (short of changing the
hull shape) that would have a greater tendency to obsolete fully
competitive, active boats than lowering the minimum weight.
Steve Lieberman, US 7876
From: Charles Crosby
Sent: 17 november 2002 18:56
To: 505 World List
Cc: Chris Thorne
Subject: Re: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
Chris Thorne wrote on behalf of former World Champion Joergen Schoenherr:
--- snip ---
> 90 % of all doublehanded Dinghies can only be helmed competitively by less
> than 15 % of all potential male Sailors!
--- snip---
> 85 kg - 75 kg = 10,0 kg
> 50% bonus of 10 kg = 5,0 kg
> Normal minimum weight for 505's 127,5 kg (127,4)
> Racing weight for a boat sailing with a 85 kg skipper 122,5 kg.
I like it! This is an extremely well-considered submission, and I hope
that somebody will propose it at the AGM in Fremantle. I would suggest
though that the actual wording and implimentation might need VERY
careful consideration to avoid the implications of the dreaded law of
unintended consequences. The best example of weight equilisation gone
completely wrong is the 49er class, where partial weight and righting
moment equilisation in discrete steps has created the totally ludicrous
situation of crews targeting the transition weights (typically 150 kg
combined), in order to abuse the system (if light weather forecast,
binge before weigh-in, then you can take weight out of the boat, if the
forecast is for heavy weather, dehydrate, in order to set the wings out
further ....)
One of the favourable consequences of Joergen's suggestion is that it
would create an incentive (but not necessity) for skippers already in
the class to get a new boat, which would help feed good used equipment
back into the class. It shouldn't disadvantage anybody, because anybody
over 85 kg sitting in the back of a 5o5 at the moment is wasting his
time anyway. Such a person may complain about having to buy a new boat
in order to be more competitive, but he is already uncompetitive anyway!
At least Joergen's system gives him an opportunity to BE more
competitive. If this proposal comes to pass, I undertake to procure
(dunno how, but I will!) a new 5o5, one that I can helm.
Charles
From: Mark Angliss
Sent: 18 november 2002 02:09
To: Charles Crosby
Cc: 505world-List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
Charles,
hmmmm..... Certainly not a believer yet, but it is food for thought with a
curious twist.
Something along these lines might be more appropriate for our top sailors as
an "option" to incorporate for special multi-country or world regattas
without "forcing" the general masses to comply. It would give them a chance
to "get the lead out" & sail as fast .......and "equally" as possible for
the venue given the formulation. From that perspective, there is nothing
stopping them right now from doing so if someone organizes such events. The
lower level sailors that typically do not attend top venues (like me) would
not be offended. Those running local & regional regattas where the general
masses appear would not be forced into adoption. I would suggest that a
popular vote be the deciding factor for each event. It is conceivable to me
that certain localities or even countries could have an over-whelming
majority of "corrected" hulls & would want to sail them to their best
potential.
As I mentioned earlier, what ever we do needs to work for the whole class.
Should such a rule be considered, your "unintended consequences" issues are
certainly notable where they need to be considered by all from every
possible angle we can come up with.
If an interesting number of our top sailors want to go faster & lighter,
that should be an issue taken seriously by the class.
Regards,
....... Mark American Section Region IV Coordinater
From: Charles Crosby
Sent: 18 november 2002 09:42
To: Mark Angliss; Charles Crosby; 505world-List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
Mark Angliss sed:
> hmmmm..... Certainly not a believer yet, but it is food for thought with a
> curious twist.
> Something along these lines might be more appropriate for our top sailors as
> an "option" to incorporate for special multi-country or world regattas
> without "forcing" the general masses to comply.
I beg to disagree. My original suggestion about weight reduction was initiated by
personal irritation about the lunacy of people spending many $$$$ on carbon fibre boats
(and potentially masts) and then throwing most of that expensive benefit away by adding
large quantities of lead. Given the large numbers of competitive old boats in the 5o5
fleet, it's clearly unlikely that the fleet would accept a rule change that would obsolete
old boats.
But Joergen's suggestion is something totally different. Old (at legal weight) boats
would not be obsoleted, they would still be acceptable to light helmsmen. There is no
point in splitting the fleet into different levels, this sytem could work at local level
as well. There is no "force" on the general masses to comply, it is an option for a
heavier helmsman to get into a class they would not otherwise consider. This is not a
question of the top (or rich) sailors going lighter and faster. The unforseen consequence
that I can foresee (!) is that some larger blokes already in the class may give up crewing
in favour of helming, which may make it more difficult than ever to find a suitable crew.
Charles
From: Jean-Baptiste Dupont
Sent: 18 november 2002 22:33
To: 505world
Subject: Carbon mast and boat weight
Dear All,
We have had a long discussion at our last AGM about those two topics in Brest while racing the French National inJuly 2002.
This AGM was well attended (48 sailors) and debate was lively.
The general consensus was that:
Agreement to reject any reduction in boat weigh at present and in the future until at least most (if not all) competitive boats are fitted with lead. This was a strong statement and most of the sailors attending the AGM were in agreement with this.
On carbon spars the general position was that it is too early to go carbon yet. Two issues need be solved before going carbon masts. Ability to cope with the load of the large spinnaker and price of course. The price of the spar was reported by Paris Voile (mast reseller) 30% higher than the Aluminium mast. The price of the carbon spar must be lower than the current aluminium masts.
We did not discuss two proposals made lately concerning the possibility to use a combination of aluminium (for the bottom) and carbon (for the top) masts This seems to work well in the Contender class and may resolve the price issue problem.
The second proposal to allow lead reduction if the helm is heavy.
In summary:
Boat weight reduction = NO this obsolete too many boats at present
Carbon Masts = NOT Yet, wait until it is cheaper than Aluminium
The question I would like to bring up is the following:
What are we really trying to achieve with those rule change ?
Do we want to make the boat more attractive by herself and hope that it would bring more sailor to the class - We should then fairly look at the result of the Long Luff Spinnaker adoption : Did we attract new sailors to the class with this spinnaker ? In France we promote hard the new kite but we did not attract even one new sailor because of the LLF - All the newcomers I know of bought older boats with old kite.
The Long Luff Spinnaker was a great move though. It makes our sailing more fun and interesting and the boat is easier to gybe and this is to the benefit of current racers only.
In other words there are very little chance that a rule change will make the boat so attractive that new sailors will join us without an incredible marketting effort from the class to let this know.
What makes our class attractive is:
- The boat is great and sell herself well
- The ride is exhilarating
- Racing is challenging and competitors are talented sailors
- Class spirit is great unlike many other classes
- Racing program is excellent
- Class activity is high
- Social program around the regatta is great
- Class rules are stable over time
- Boat last for many years
- The boat evolves over time
- Class officers are talented and dedicated
- Race venues are great for the family as well as the racers
What makes our class not attractive is:
- The rig is complex
- Rig and unrig takes too much time
- Too long distance to ride to go racing
- You need a crew
- The crew must weigh enough
- The boat is expensive
- Blocks, systems, and spare parts are dear and need frequent replacement
- The rig is fragile (mast) and do not resist a turtle in shallow water on a bad day
- Campaign the boat cost too much money (gas, hotels, food, race fees,etc.)
In other words our priority is to go recruit guys and make them feel how great it is to race on a Fiveoh. How great the class is and how worth the money they are to invest is. This is a hard job and is the only way to get more sailors in the game.
Changing rules too fast or too often may increase the difficulty and increase the reasons why our class is not attractive And this is what we all want to avoid, dont we ?
Changing rules will not automatically attract newcomers but they may well reduce the current number of sailors : so let us set the criteria we should gather to decide to change instead. As an example let's agree on the following criteria that we will go carbon once the price of the carbon mast is the same (or lower) as the aluminium mast because it simply makes common sense to do so.
Since the German Class (and the American Class too) are doing so well and grow steadily with the boat as it stands. I would really appreciate it if our German and American friends could tell us how they proceed. I am very impressed with the results, large number of members, great turnouts at regatta, talented sailors, active mailing list, etc. We need to share that special secret they apply and see how we can benefit in our countries of the reciepes...
Best regards,
Jean-Baptiste
From: Chris Thorne
Sent: 18 november 2002 23:07
To: 505 World List
Subject: Fw: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Young"
Jorgen Schonherr has put an interesting slant on an old theme, but why not
go one further. Why not simply make the minimum all up weight of boat, helm,
and crew 317.4 kg with a minimum weight of 105kg on the hull?
This way all boats stand a chance of being competitive and mostly lighter
helms and crews will have to add ballast. Weight can be easily be changed
if a crew is changed and it would be easy to do spot checks throughout a
regatta to see that the rules were being observed.
The other solution is to simply add 20% more sail area to the main and jib
so the boat is overpowered for more of the time, and has a power to weight
ratio more suited to bigger teams. "heavy" helms are not an issue in classes
with high power-to-weight(all up) ratio's. Everyone agree's that big kites
means more fun, so why not bigger fore and aft sails to go with it.
Even better why not do both? We would then have a fantastic class with more
competitive boats and teams than we have now, more comepetitive secondhand
boats available, and all for the price of a new main and jib,and some lead.
Paul Young.
From: Mark Stowell
Sent: 19 november 2002 00:24
To: 'Jesse Falsone'; '505World'
Subject: RE: right! make it lighter-NO
Just a quick note to everyone who has clogged up my email while being away 2
days (so no need to reply to the world):
This was debated at length and voted on by all 505 sailors reasonably
recently, and did not get up.
There were very sound reasons and analysis by all as to why the 505 should
not go this route.
It is also not a panacea to getting youth into the fleet. In Perth the 505's
are 25 boats, incl 4 skippered by 15-17 yr olds, and about 8 skippered by
under 25 yr old (that is boats).
The 49er in Perth was about 15 boats, but now 6 boats on a good day. Main
reasons- cost, and skills reqd to stay upright and competetive.
Lets give it a break on discussing changing the boat (again).
The reason we get youth into the class here is cheap competetive second hand
boats, plenty of good cheap (sometimes free) second hand gear (masts,
boards, sails etc ) from the rest of the fleet, support and encouragement on
and off water from the rest of the fleet, and the worlds here also helped.
New weight, new masts new sail sizes means recut sails (meaning another
$3000 for new ones) etc etc.
Having weight adjustment for different crews is also not an option. How do
you deal with this on a weekend raceday when you get a crew off the beach??
Another level of complication to scare people off. Ive sailed with +100kg
crew in light winds, and light crews in heavy winds, and done well in both-
the beauty of this boat is you can set the rig to handle your crew weight.
In the end, its still a 505 and sails like one. Its not going to attract new
sailors because of the changes, but detract younger sailors because of cost
and complexity.
Regards
Mark Stowell
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 18 november 2002 06:08
To: Mark Angliss; Raimo Raita; 505World
Subject: Re: right! make it lighter!
Mark
Another issue for the older sailors is each year they get heavier and less
competitive. A solution would be to assume an average helmsman weighs 75kg
and then if the helm weighs 95kgs allow them to take 20kgs of lead out of
the boat.
This wouldn't make the class any lighter, as a whole but it would encourage
the older more "portly" helms to stay in the class (if they have the money
to buy new boats) and would not disadvantage young sailors (who presumably
are fitter and lighter) and could buy older on weight boats and still be
competitive.
Also keeping the crew out of the equation prevents the rule being corrupted
i.e so a feather weight helm and heavy trapeze hand are more competitive.
Norman Brandon
7478
Australia
From: Aaron Ross
Sent: 19 november 2002 04:49
To: 505World
Subject: Re: right! make it lighter!
Folks, let us look at the top of our class. They are faster because they
have spent the years in the fleet, and the hours each year on the water.
It has very little to do with their weight. Do not penalize everyone and every
boat because some people can not lay off the cake. In a sprint or a marathon,
everyone has to run the same distance.
You can exact revenge on me in Fremantle
Aaron Ross
USA 7156
From: Charles Crosby
Sent: 19 november 2002 06:47
To: Chris Thorne; 505 World List
Subject: Re: fw: Weight debate - an interesting new angle
> Jorgen Schonherr has put an interesting slant on an old theme, but why not
> go one further. Why not simply make the minimum all up weight of boat, helm,
> and crew 317.4 kg with a minimum weight of 105kg on the hull?
No, this doesn't change anything. Gorilla crews and midget helmsmen will still be
favoured.
Charles
(A gorilla-ish crew who would like to do some steering when the midget is not available)
From: Raimo Raita
Sent: 19 november 2002 08:14
To: '505World'
Subject: I insist: make it lighter
Mark,
I still say the boat is a pain to handle on steep ramps and in general on
the beach. Remember Cascais?
Snipe was made lighter, and the class is stronger than ever. But they
prepared a good forward-looking strategy for the modification.
It can be done if we want.
What I fail to understand is why the Australian boats are as a rule equipped
with (lots of) correctors but even newest Rondars and Waterats are said to
be on the dot. I suspect the Northern hemisphere has fallen behind in the
technology / stress management battle now. Or maybe Bret & co build them too
light and they all fall in pieces at the Worlds? I don't think so.
But I agree at one point: let's rather be conservative and let's not scare
potential newcomers away. Maybe we should subdue this discussion for a while
and rather enjoy those reports soon flooding in from Fremantle. Our home
lake being frozen over now we have plenty of time for that.
Regards / Terveisin
Raimo Raita
FIN-8056
From: Jesse Falsone
Sent: 19 november 2002 13:43
To: Jean-Baptiste Dupont
Cc: 505world
Subject: Re: Carbon mast and boat weight
Jean-Baptiste - the American Section has to struggle every year to keep our
numbers at around 200-220. Increasingly, we are taking a harder line on
joining the class, but people still get away with not paying their dues -
even at major regattas! It's been stated before that the dichotomy in the
class, especially in the US, is that the boats last "too long" and they
hold there value too much. A mediocre 20 year old super boat still runs
$7,000 plus, and this doesn't help the 20-somethings in the US get into the
class - especially with all the other expenses necessary to be competitive.
I suspect that the Germans are more successful because they have a higher
turnover of cheap, but competitive boats. I also believe that most people
in the US look at a 505 (and other dinghies) more as an investment than as
a steadily depreciating toy, and this has buoyed re-sale prices. So long
as the value of a 505 is tied primarily to its percieved performance
potential and not its age, prices for used boats in the US will remain
high, and fewer new people will be able to afford to join the fun.
Jesse Falsone
From: Jens Hufnagel
Sent: 19 november 2002 19:27
To: 505world
Subject: 505world: Weight reduction
Dear all,
I do not understand why this topic is brought up again and again. Also some of the "pros" for a
weight reduction like handling on the beach are ridiculous.
The suggestion of adapting the correctors to the crew weight is not too bad, but it makes things more complicated.
I am a helm of 82 kg and sailing with a 79kg crew. Our 8730 does not carry any correctors and regarding boat speed in most cases we are as fast as the top crews. It is not my fat ass but the brain and the experience as well as boat handling that make us finish at the end of the first quarter in average.
We do consider ourselves as engaged, well equipped short timers. We do have families that expect us to spend a certain time with them and so we do not even exercise on water. With all that we can reach a certain success in attractive competitions.
Personally I do not think I will ever race another boat than the 505 (as long as I can). A
weight reduction will reduce the size of the fleet and we are not sure if we are going to buy a new boat after we have equipped ours that it fits us perfectly.
Think about that:
If you can afford to buy a 505, you do have a demanding job, you are older than 25 and in most cases you have children.
So, make it easier not more complicated!
Jens
GER 8730
From: Bill Heintz
Sent: 20 november 2002 04:17
To: 505world; 505fleet19; 505usa
Subject: a 49er, a Tornado, or an airplane ticket?
Since I'm a "new member" in the 5o5 class I'll keep my opinions short
(perhaps they reflect why I joined, and are not properly jaded with
experience from 5o5 class rules discussions.)
[Also, I'm neither going to the World's this year nor planning on
buying a new (not pre-owned) boat this year; if that has any relevance.]
YES for CARBON FIBER MAST: I have 4 aluminum masts (2 free to for
anyone who wants them.)
YES for REDUCE HULL WEIGHT: I'd happily pick up an x-"super boat" at
reduced prices - it will seem pretty good on the local circuit. I
favor Raimo Raita's idea of "1 kg per year for the next 20 years" - in
20 years, 127.4 kg will seem pretty heavy!
If the Mast and Hull can be built SAFELY at reduced weights, why do we
WANT to make the boats slower?
To postpone either of these issues may be short sited . . . but who am
I to complain, I could "get a 49er, or a Tornado, or buy an airplane
ticket."
"Weight is only of use to steam rollers."
~ Uffa Fox
Bill Heintz
CAN 4567, KEN 8261
From: Howard Hamlin
Sent: 20 november 2002 05:57
To: 505world
Subject: Howard Hamlin - carbon masts
Last year the International 18' Skiff class converted to carbon masts. Here are the facts:
Surprisingly the boat was no more fun to sail.
All aluminum masts became obsolete.
Carbon masts are more expensive.
Carbon masts broke just as easily.
Carbon masts were harder to repair.
Once broken the repair cost was more than a new one.
Carbon did not attract any new people to the class.
One supplier became best, so the rest of the world still had to import.
The one benefit, carbon masts are easier to carry around the boat park, hardly a reason to change. The bottom line is, carbon masts will not make the 505 any more fun, will increase the cost and make boats obsolete therefore reducing the size of the 505 class.
- Howard Hamlin
From: Andy Williams
Sent: 20 november 2002 11:55
To: hufnagel
Cc: 505world; owner-505world
Subject: Re: Weight reduction
Jens Hufnagel wrote:
>Our 8730 does not carry any correctors and regarding boat speed in most cases we are as fast as the top crews.
Are you trying to tell us that a (very nearly) brand new european boat has NO correctors in it??? and trying to claim it's not under weight??
Chris Thorne can supply accurate figures here, but I am reasonably sure that just about every boat built post-8500 had at least 5kg of correctors.
When we did the weigh-in at the Worlds in Cascais I was surprised at the number of boats (of all vintages) carrying correctors and still trying to get away with being under weight. Of the 100+ boats we weighed at that event, only about 10% were on weight without correctors, and some of those had "suspiciously" heavy rudders. The rest could all have shed a few kilos quite easily.
From: [email protected]
Sent: 20 november 2002 12:28
To: Andy Williams
Cc: hufnagel; 505world; owner-505world
Subject: Re: Weight reduction
Hi Andy
I own a brand new Rondar (DEN-8807) with no correctors, and its on weigth! I think Ebbe Rosen (SWE-8806) has no correctors as well!
Most of the Rondar boats fitted by Holger Jess is without lead i think.
Tom Bojland
VP
From: Christian Pittack
Sent: 20 november 2002 14:29
To: 505world; owner-505world
Subject: 5o5 - Adding New Sailors to Class
Adding new sailors to the class or why I am joining the fleet.
I am not a 5o5 sailor, in fact I have never even been out on one....but I am planning to buy one as soon as I find the right boat. You guys are talking about why people are interested in becoming a fleet member. Well here's is my take.
I own and race a Cal 40 in long and overnight races. I do PHRF on a buddy's Choate 27 and am sick of PHRF. It's time to go one-designing. But which one?
Since I already have one ridiculous moorage payment and don't want another most keel boat fleets are out. No J-22/24, Etchell and so on.
The dot com bust has made Melges 24 cheap (sort of). Trailer able yes but I have a VW van which can barely get out of it own way. I want to spend money on a boat not a Ford Econoline Van and I need crew.
I want to sail with my wife on the wire.
Local Tasar fleet is strong in the husband and wife thing....not enough to tweek and no kite. I wanna learn to tweak and "fly".
49ers, 14's are out. I've seen them trying to leave the dock...it would take me 6 months just to learn do that! Plus if I wanted X-games mentality I'd watch it on TV.
470 maybe.
So why?
1) Depth of Fleet (lots of knowledge and willing to share).
2) Boat grows with you. (like poker, it's cheap early but to win you have to stay in a few expensive rounds)
3) Every good sailor I know has spent time in one until they gained weight. My personal favorite "yeah I sailed 5o's....150 lbs ago".
My 2 euro-cents worth....thank you.
Chris P.
From: Jørgen Schönherr
Sent: 20 november 2002 15:51
To: Mark Stowell; 505 World List
Subject: Joergen Schoenherr - answer to Mark Stowell
Hi Mark,
Talking about weight adjustment, it looks like you haven't read the proposal carefully (or maybe my English is too bad).
The idea wasn't meat for crews (they can find a light helmsman and still be competitive) - but only for heavy helmsmen. The idea was not to make the boat lighter, but to attract more than kids, women and very light helmsmen only. I believe that the 505 should be race competitively by much more people.
Of course there should only be control weighting at major championships and of course you can cheat on a the local weekend raceday like you can cheat with any other rules at these venues too. I'm sure by opening our doors to helmsmen weighting more than 75-80 kilos we will increase the number of 505 sailors a lot and I'm sure that this simple control at major championships would not make life to complicated for the rest (you don't have to be weighted if you are not heavier than the minimum limit we that make).
Mark, please read this proposal again (click here) and please look at the potential if we could race against much more people.
Thank you.
PEDAN A/S
Joergen Schoenherr
From: Ali Meller
Sent: 20 november 2002 15:27
To: 505world
Subject: Re: Weight reduction
Dear
Andy et al,
I'm not certain that my Rondar 8776 counts as "nearly new European
boat", since it was built prior to the Cascais worlds (in North
America it counts as "new"). I and a measurer recently
reweighed the boat and it now has no lead correctors in it (and is on
weight). I e-mailed Chris so he could update his records (I
suspect not everyone does when boats are reweighed, so in most cases
Chris' records would show what correctors a boat originally had, not
what it has now).
This is with two year old Waterat high aspect ratio blades, which are
not heavy, a lightly rigged Proctor "D", etc.
When it was built, I asked Rondar to stiffen the support of the
centreboard trunk, as I had spoken with Krister Bergstrom in Durban and
that is what he did to his Rondar, after it was built. So my
Rondar may weight very slightly more than a "typical" Rondar.
On the other hand, Tom Bojland reports that his and Ebbe Rosen's very
new Rondars have no correctors, either.
Alexander Meller
In a message dated 11/20/2002 5:56:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Andy Williams writes:
Are
you trying to tell us that a (very nearly) brand new european boat has
NO correctors in it??? and trying to claim it's not under
weight??
Chris Thorne can supply accurate figures here, but I am reasonably
sure that just about every boat built post-8500 had at least 5kg of
correctors
From: Jørgen Schönherr
Sent: 20 november 2002 16:49
To: Christian Pittack; 505world
Subject: RE: 5o5 - Adding New Sailors to Class
Hi Christian,
I think your 3rd answer “ Every good sailor I know has spent time in one until they gained weight. My personal favourite "yeah I sailed 5o's....150 lbs ago" gives food for thought.
Hope to see you in this wonderful class.
Joergen Schoenherr
PEDAN A/S
Joergen Schoenherr
From: Geoffrey A Cashman
Sent: 20 november 2002 18:47
To: 505world
Subject: RE: 5o5 - Adding New Sailors to Class
I rarely chime in here, more often just listening. There are
far more skilled sailors than I on this list, and it's rare
that there is a subject on which I feel qualified to comment.
I think this is one of them.
The weight debate to me *personally* is a moot point. In terms
of my boat, and what I will get for it...it's a non-issue. I
won't be buying a new boat anytime in the next 20 years. My wife
insists (God bless her!) this isn't the case, that I will get
that new boat, but realistically it isn't going to happen.
So, I have to be content with the boat I have (1979 Ballenger
505 US6660) and maybe a few years from now an old 'superboat'.
I sail regionally only. I've been to CORK a few times, but
that's the biggest regatta I go to on a regular basis. Up
until a few years ago, my region had *1* 'superboat' in it.
When I purchased my Ballenger at that time, I was getting a
boat that I could have a reasonable expectation of being
competitive with the boats in my region.
In the last few years, several more superboats have been
purchased. I have found now that though my sailing skill
has improved markedly over the intervening years, I am having
a hard time making any headway in the fleet...my positions
have occasionally risen, but overall I'm basically where I
was in the finish column.
I do find that in light air and flat water, the gap in
performance between my 23 year old boat and superboats
that are less than 10 years old...is almost non-existent!
Thus, paradoxically, I look forward to light air/flat water
regattas because I have a prayer of doing well. My best
race ever was in flat water/light air off Detroit/Windsor.
Some very good competition in that race, and we beat all of
them except one. I can't tell you how proud I was. It was
a crowning moment of years of effort.
My boat, when I purchased it, was 28lbs over the low limit
already. I've since been able to lower it about 5lbs. But,
getting it lower than that isn't terribly realistic.
If the class adopts a lower weight limit, I will be seriously
outclassed by lighter boats within five years time. Any boats
with correctors will get them removed if they can, and I will
be facing boats that are 50, 60, even 70lbs lighter than mine.
Worse, a significant number of regionally active 505s in this
region would be immediately obsoleted. 505 racing in this
region, which is not horrendously active (10 boats is a good
regatta) would quite possibly collapse.
I raced a heavy boat years ago...when I first got into 505ing. I
sailed an old club owned Rondar 505 (US4578). The boat was/is
seriously overweight. I learned quickly that if I were to have
any prayer on the first beat, I had to be hyper-aggressive at the
starts. I suppose that was a good process, in that it made me a
better sailor, but I always got stomped on later in the race no
matter how well I did at the start...no matter how well I sailed.
It was seriously depressing at times. It is one of the primary
reasons why I bought my boat.
Now, if this new weight limit were to come into play, I'd be
back in that very depressing spot again. I've got a new baby
(future crew!) due in March. I'm buying a house within the
next few months. Think I'm going to walk out and buy a newer
505 that is somewhat close to the new lower limit? Not a prayer.
I'd effectively be out of 505 racing. It's hard enough battling
the superboats...but I try mightily, and once in a blue moon
succeed for a whole race.
I think the idea of lowering it 1kg per year is a bad idea as
well. You'd have a whole range of boats that adhered to all
manner of different weight limits. Figuring out what boat had
what etc...it would be a nightmare. Far more easy I would think
would be to say the class won't support boats that are 30 years
or older in terms of their ability to get to a lower weight limit.
Thus, boats being built now with correctors could be covered,
and those boats aren't going to be obsoleted by a sliding kg
reduction.
I love the 505. It's by far the best boat I've ever sailed
in, class included. I am thoroughly dedicated to it and the
class. But, I really don't see how I can be so in the future
if the rug gets pulled out from underneath me.
Maybe I'm not rich enough to be a 505 sailor. Shrug. That
doesn't matter so much to me. What matters to me is whether
the class is going to turn this into a class where you *have*
to be rich just to keep up. I haven't even gone to the longer
luff kite yet because I had to dish out $20,000 for my wedding
and honeymoon this past May. Coming up with the bucks to do that
changeover wasn't going to happen. You tell me to switch to a
carbon mast and/or find a lower weight boat, and I will laugh
at you because there's no way I can or will do it. So, do it,
and you lose me....a simple regional sailor. How many other
simple regional sailors are you going to lose? It probably
won't affect your numbers on the line at World's. Maybe that's
the only measure that matters?
I have dreams of someday being on the start line at World's.
But, I sure as hell am not going to show up in the relative
performance equivalent of a 470 (compared to a lower weight
limit 505).
-Geoff Cashman
505 US6660
505er since 1995.
From: Marco Giraldi
Sent: 20 november 2002 20:57
To: 505World
Subject: Carbon or not carbon?
Gentlemen
I am following the discussion with mixed feelings. On one hand the carbon spar will undoubtedly improve performance, on the other hand it will cost a lot of money and it will be more delicate (more likely to break, at least based on 49er, class A cats that I see). If performance is the key, then we should eliminate the boat minimum weight restriction too, as some people are suggesting. But all this, where will it take the class? I do not have the answer.
I sail 505 because it is fun with "class".
I immediately jumped into buying the new Big spinnaker even before it was legal, because I believed that it will be fun and so it was. The extra power, that it delivers, increases dramatically the fun factor at a cost slightly higher than a regular spi. In other words they were money well spent, but I am not sure that the same will hold true for the carbon mast. Will it increase the fun factor? Will it make you smile? I have some doubts especially considering the investment required.
On the other hand I do firmly believe that reviving the double trapeze will do more to the performance of the boat, to the fun factor, to the appeal of the boat than adopting a carbon mast. It will be the biggest smile for less than 100 Euro that you can get. (I know. I have a double trapeze on my boat)
Marco Giraldi
8097
From: Chris Thorne
Sent: 20 november 2002 22:55
To: 505 World List
Subject: Re: Weight reduction
In response to Andy's point, no boat with a number lower than 8620 will have more than 2kgs of correctors, as prior to the 1997 rule change that was the maximum allowed. Some people did specify lighter boats, I can think of a couple of all carbon examples, where so called "structural lead" was added, i.e lead glassed into the boat, often under the c/b case capping or in the side tanks, but it was unusual for this to amount to more than a couple more kgs.
However, since the rule change, which banned structural lead but permitted unlimited correctors, we have seen a huge range. Some new boats have very small correction, 0.5kg or less. with a maximum so far of 17 kg. One manufacturer produced successive boats with nil and 16 kgs, nothing to do with building error, but all to do with the customer's requirements. We do question (and check wherever possible) low corrector weights, but it appears that there are plenty of people who see little logic in sailing round with two huge lumps of lead in the boat and ask the builder to strengthen the floor, side tanks in the crew area and c/b case..
Chris
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 21 november 2002 03:37
To: HPHAMLIN; 505world
Subject: Re: Howard Hamlin - carbon masts
Everybody is fixated on a carbon mast. I agree keep the aluminium mast for
now, but change the rules to allow carbon fibre booms and spinnaker poles.
Benefits:
> ALLOWS OLDER BOATS TO GET WEIGHT DOWN in a significant and easy way.
>Won't damage boat if dropped on deck, hurts less on skippers head.
>Won't improve performance in any significant way for the new boats
> Carbon fibre spinnaker pole won't damage mast, less likely to knock teeth
out etc.
>Allows the class to assess the competence of suppliers in each country.
>Allows an assessment of the price relative to aluminium booms & Spinnaker
Poles.
>Allows assessment of the repair costs etc.
>Allows sailors to experience owning a carbon spar and become familiar with
the material, they can then make a more informed decision about the mast
issue at a later date.
Downside:
>NONE
Norman Brandon
7478
Perth
From: Mark Angliss
Sent: 21 november 2002 06:40
To: Norman Brandon; HPHAMLIN
505world
Subject: Re: Howard Hamlin - carbon masts
Norman,
Nice point! Many of us forgot about poles & booms. (Excuse my aching head,
clocked by the boom again)
From a practical standpoint, what is the problem of making a boom or spin
pole from any material we desire as long as the boat meets the "weight"
rules? I haven't heard any "speed" arguments here. A stronger 505 is a safer
505. ( with less expense for repairs)
Not like a carbon pole or boom is going to twist your boat to a forward
position.
....... Mark
From: Norman Brandon
Sent: 21 november 2002 09:27
To: Jørgen Schönherr; Mark Stowell; 505 World List
Subject: re: widening the potential market- heavy helms lighter boats
Hi Joergen
I agree, anything that widens the potential market is good.
Basically the local fleet knows who owns the boat, and the helmsman and boat
combinations are usually a constant.
YOU ONLY HAVE TO RE-WEIGH BOATS WHEN THE HELMSMAN WANTS
TO TAKE LEAD OUT.
Most older boats couldn't take any weight out anyway.
Once you know the weight of the boat with correctors, then all you need to
do
is re-weigh the skipper dry in sailing gear probably at the state championships
(if he wants to make a change). Chances are that the skipper will be a kilo heavier
each year not lighter and they can choose to leave the boat "overweight" or go
to the trouble of changing the lead and admitting they've got fatter !
BENEFIT
Heavier (older) skippers would buy new "underweight " boats and support builders.
More second hand on-weight boats would come into the market for young first
timers.
Crew could become skippers, and introduce more new crews etc.
DIS-ADVANTAGE
Local measurer gets a bit more work.
If somebody borrowed the boat they would need to be re-weighed for a championships.
For one off club racing you wouldn't bother, it would be no different to the
new
Fremantle 505 or Van Munsters racing at the club before they had lead put in.
Cheers
Norman Brandon
7478
(Heavy Older Helm)
From: Jens Hufnagel
Sent: 21 november 2002 18:10
To: 505world
Cc: 505de
Subject: 505world: Carbon discussion - pre vote of Germany
Dear 505 world,
dear German fleet,
this is following my e-mail a few days ago. I started a voting in the German mailing list, simply asking, whether people are in favour or against carbon spars.
First the result and afterwards the try of an explanation.
Pro: 11
Contra: 45
About 150 people are in the mailing list with an estimated 100 following it regularly. Only a few German sailors do follow the international discussion about this topic (from my experience)
Let me try to give you an idea about the german "505 market"
___________
505 fleet
In 2002 we have 85 teams in the ranking list with at least 3 events per year and a 161 teams having sailed at least 1 regatta.
The fleet is devided more or less into a northern and southern group, where in average you can say the boats in the north are younger, being sailed in heavier winds and waves.
The boat market is actually dominated by Rondar, with smaller market shares for Kyrwood (in the past), Kulmar, Mader and Duvoisin and a few Waterats. There are still some Parkers on the race course, mainly in the south and on flat water.
The turnover on new boats is quite low in the past years, in total something between 5 and 10 per year.
The oldest boat in the top 20 of our Nationals 2002 is Rondar 8505 (94).
About 85% of the first half in the ranking list do use Kevlar mains and I would say there are about 20 crews with high aspect centre boards. Only a hand full of boats still have a small kite.
All top 20 boats are highly equipped and in pretty good condition.
___________
Competing classes
Germany most probably is the largest sailing nation in Europe (total numbers). Like in other countries sailing and also dinghy sailing is getting less popular. Major classes are:
Optimist
420
Pirat (national heavy weighted boat, designed 36, 10 sqm, doublehanded, twice as big as 505 class)
O-Jolle (Olympic single hander for 1936, sailed by elder gentlemen)
Laser
Contender (coming up recently)
470 (dying actually)
Korsar (5m trapeze boat for flat water, being sailed in the south)
FD (was decreasing, now coming back, but affordable only for well-off sailors with BMWs etc)
...
There are a lot more, all fighting for "market share"
Skill demanding classes like 49er, 14ft, Musto Skiff, IC etc. do have a small share as we can only sail 7-8 months per year and it gets too frustrating for the average sailor.
___________
Explanation for result:
Finally, the technical standard of German boats can be seen on the higher level compared with other 505 nations. Holger is setting the pace for innovations and most teams try to follow sooner or later.
This seems to be paradoxical, as a representative majority is not in favour of the discussed change at the moment. There was no alternative like "maybe" or "later", so some of the people answering "contra" could mean "Not Yet"
The German sailing market is dominated by slow and simple boats. A lot of sailors do enjoy the social aspect of racing and try to keep the cost for it on the low side.
In general, we can say, there is a negative response from the german fleet at the moment and maybe the advantages of a change have to be made much clearer or good compromises have to be found.
Have fun in Perth
Jens
GER 8730
From: Mathew Hansen
Sent: 22 november 2002 01:10
To: 505world-tanktalk
Subject: Carbon Masts
Dear All,
It seems to me the critical decision point re carbon masts will come when
they become cheaper than Aluminium masts and by all accounts we are
still a few years away from that point though I'm sure it will eventually
happen. I am looking forward to the discussion at the worlds AGM when
hopefully the experts will be able to update us on these issues.
I support the idea of allowing carbon booms and spinnaker poles NOW as a way
of getting the "feel" of the material without obsoleting anybody and with
negligible performance change. It would also allow some of the heavier
boats the chance to lose a couple of Kg and prevent a few fractured skulls!
Its hard to see any disadvantage with this proposal. Any comments?
Matt Hansen
AUS 7283,8175,8182,8668,8755,8811
From: Fred Liesegang
Sent: 27 november 2002 00:21
To: 505 int email
Subject: carbon masts, weight, etc.
Hello All,
After reading and listening to many opinions about carbon masts, reducing wt.,
and
attracting sailors, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into the fray.
What I believe we want to do is make the boat more fun to sail(if that is possible)
and more attractive
to potential 505 sailors. The two most common reactions I get
when talikng to people about 505s is
"Do they still race them?", and "it is too complicated".
To the latter, there is nothing we can do without making it less attractive to those of us
who like that part of it.
The 505 never will appeal to everyone.
The carbon mast will make the boat seem more
"state of the art", which may attract those who would be interested in sailing a 505. As long as a carbon
mast can be acquired to about the same cost, and be at least as durable as an aluminum spar, I think it is a
worthwhile change.
The 505 is already lighter than most 15 foot sailboats, let alone anything the same size. Reducing
the weight can only make current boats obsolete, and probably reduce the durability of it, which is one of
the 505s' strongest assets.
Fred Liesegang
USA 4936
USA 8645
From: Graham H Alexander
Sent: 2 december 2002 15:50
To: 'HPHAMLIN; 505world
Subject: RE: Howard Hamlin - carbon masts
To All,
After carefully reviewing all the responses to Carbon Masts, I believe
Howard's email says it best, with the most authority. It is included below.
It would be nice to leverage on the board sailing developments, maybe a two
piece mast with inexpensive variable stiffness tips which could be replaced
due to breakage or tuning for crew weight or conditions. A straight alum
extrusion is quite cheap compared to a tapered section. Two piece masts
would simplify storage, shipping etc. However the development time and
costs would be huge!! Remember it isn't just the mast but the sails and
whole system that would be affected.
We aren't a skiff ( I believe Bethwaite would require us to loose about 2/3
of the boat weight to qualify). The 505 is a great combination as it is.
As is obvious from worlds, we have a very competitive class, with a large
number of people who spend significant money following their dreams.
We also have an even larger number of very dedicated people in the class who
support, or might even be called the class, who are not in the world league
but are the local fleets. These people are important to the class!!!
I believe that most of the people coming into the class, and staying with the
class for long periods of time are in this later category. Few people will
witness a worlds, no less be in one. Most new people want to know who can
they sail with, how far from home, how often can I sail, what kind of help
can I get, what are the people like, how expensive is it to get started, how
far away are the regattas. In general, the local fleets and potential new
people will be price sensitive.
I supported the LLS. People have to buy sails sometimes. It was relatively
inexpensive and a real boon to boats sailing in mixed regattas which
normally have 90 degree triangles. It obviously improves the 505's
performance in direct comparison to other boats on the "normal" course and
this helps get new blood in the class. Hopefully the "best" setup will come
from worlds this year to eliminate the perceived or real problem of mast
durability with the new kites.
Best luck to all at Worlds.
Sincerely,
Graham Alexander
Columbus, Ohio
Sail fast but sail smart.
US7685 and US4593 (prev 6660,4589,3036,2834)