Can the World's Best Two Person High
Performance Dinghy Class be Improved?
Updated March 12, 1998
It being winter in the northern hemisphere,
and too cold to sail in many countries, desparate 505 sailors turn to e-mail to argue
about possible improvements in the 505 class... from the 505world-list e-mail listserver.
From: Clive Robinson
To:
505world-list
Date: February 28, 1998
Subj: 505world Asymmetric Spinnakers on 505s
I am responding to the letter from Nick Turpin in the latest 505 Great Britain magazine.
His letter is far to long for me to replicate here. But the theme of his letter was a
powerful argument for the introduction of asymmetric spinnakers to the 505 class.
I fully agree with Nick and would like to comment:
1. In the UK, the image promoted by the major manufacturers, Laser Center, LDC
Sailsports, and Topper International is that asymmetric boats are fun and exiting. These
manufacturers take many pages of full colour advertising in Yachts and yachting in every
edition. My son, Christopher, brought up on a diet of this magazine, thought and still
does think, anything with a traditional spinnaker pole is old fashioned.
2. I like to sail mid-week with my wife, Marion. Because she is not a 13 stone (182
lb.) plus gorilla, she finds it difficult to launch and recover the pole. This puts her
off sailing the 505. It is noticeable how many women are sailing the asymmetric classes
which do not have this problem. On the same theme, I occasionally borrow a mid or back of
the fleet 505. Even for my experienced crew Gary, he struggles to launch the pole with any
system which is not set up correctly or maintained properly. Most of us who have been in
the class a long time have no pole problems. However for any newcomers to the class who
suffer with pole launching it is a negative factor when they see their mates pulling up
the asymmetrics with ease.
3. I believe we would all have more fun sailing a faster downwind boat. We would
also have more fun sailing a craft more demanding tactically on the run. We all ready have
one of the fastest boats upwind - why shouldn't we be equally fast downhill.
4. Our image would be instantly brought up to date.
5. Why buy a 505 and not one of the newer classes? Two reasons. A 505 is a beautiful
craft and secondly the 505 is a proper boats with comfortable sidetanks - much more
preferable to the low freeboard opposition with nowhere to sit once the wind is below
trapezing strength.
6. I am working on the assumption that our existing masts would take the additional
sail area. This may be possible as long as we do not raise the spinnaker sheave box. I
would welcome comment from anyone on this.
7. I am assuming all our existing 505s can be converted. Does anyone know if this is
possible.
Clive Robinson
GBR 8676
All Stripes and No Stars
From: Johan_Backsin
To: 505world-list
Subj: 505world Weight equalization system in 505
Date: March 1, 1998
Have the 505 class ever looked into a possibility of a weight
equalization system.
As an established class, the average age of 505 sailors is probably
higher than 20 years ago. Sure, we want young sailors entering the
class, but we still want current 505ers to stay. Personally I have
since I was twenty years added about 1KG/year. Bet I'm not alone.
As a driver, when you get over a certain weight, it become too much of
a handicap, and you cannot stay competitive. In all single trapeze
boats, you obviously need a light driver and heavy crew. I did some
assumptions, and came up with following table of different Crew/Driver
weight combinations (in Kilo), all generating the same righting
momentum
Driver Crew Driver+Crew Delta total weight
70 90 160
0
75 87 162
+2
80 84 164
+4
85 81 166
+6
90 78 168
+8
95 75 170
+10
The combination of a 70+90 Kg Driver/Crew generate the same righting
force as a 95+75Kg Driver/Crew, but the latter sail a 10Kg heavier
boat.
10 years ago, if you got heavy as driver, you haven't much of a
choice. Very few twin trapeze, no exciting double hiking boats, or
exciting single handers. If you still wanted to drive, and sail a fun
high performance boat, you had no option than to stay (uncompetitive).
Today, we all know its completely different. There is a whole slew
full of new twin trapeze boats with asymmetrics, fast fun single
handers, and even some pretty interesting looking twin hiking boats.
If you want to drive and are heavy, you have plenty of good solutions,
OUTSIDE the 505 class. BTW, the same argument go equally well if you
are a light crew.
Solution. Weight equalization system based on helmsman weight (or crew
weight, doesn't matter).
Driver weight Boat weight
70-75 127.4
75-80 125.4
80-85 123.4
85-90 121.4
90-95 119.4
95+ 117.4
Advantages with this weight equalization system:
+ Heavy driver can race on equal terms against light drivers
+ Light crews can race on equal terms against heavy crews
+ As you get older and heavier, you can still be competitive
+ Middle age has more $ than young, $ to buy new boats. More 505s
+ Smooth introduction of lighter boats into the class
+ It will proliferate 505 against new (and traditional) dinghies
The only drawback I see is administration, but its not a big deal.
There are several existing sports today which has weight classes.
Johan Backsin. SWE-8593
(the fact I'm the tallest (read heavy) 505 driver has absolutely
nothing to do with my proposal above)
From: Christian Lippi
To: 505world-list
Subj: 505world Future of the class
Date: March 1, 1998
Johan Backsin and Clive Robinson's arguments deserve a lot of attention.
Two of my former crews cannot sail 505 any longer because they have
damaged their backs while carrying weight andsetting the pole after gybing
in heavy conditions.
Christian Lippi ( 90 kgs ! )
F 8444
Subj: Re: 505world Future of the class
Date: 98-03-01 12:35:24 EST
From: [email protected] (Bill Green)
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Christian et al,
We have a great boat, can't we just leave it alone?
This seems to come up about once a year. I think the notion
of asymmetrical kites being more "tactical" then symmetrics has
been thoroughly covered in the past, so I will let that die.
As far as the weight equalization system, I like the idea of a
light boat, and at 70 kg (155 lb) I am not on the heavy side
of the issue. The rigs are adjustable enough, spinnakers come
in many different sizes, and you can get a variety of different
mast stiffness that the boat is in some ways, already
weight equalized. In my fleet we have one boat with a combined
weight of about 400 lb., and another that is around 300
(with a 130 lb crew) and they are even in all conditions.
They sail with very different rigs, but go about the same speed.
I don't think I should have to put 10kg of lead in my boat
because I am 10 kg lighter than another sailor.
If I recall correctly, the biggest opponent to the 49ers
weight equalization system was Julian Bethwaite, who thought
is was wholly unnecessary for reasons I won't get into.
Regarding the spinnaker, I believe the IRC is investigating
a larger spinnaker and will report back at the 1998 Worlds.
If memory serves the idea is to have a spinnaker that is
faster down wind, but can still sail tight reaching angles.
Isn't this what you are trying to get with the asymmetric?
As far as launching the pole goes, I can't believe a Spiro
launcher is so much more difficult to launch than an
asymmetric's bow sprit that it may injure your crew.
Bill Green
USA 6491
Subj: Re: 505world Future of the class
Date: 98-03-01 13:53:23 EST
From: [email protected] (Preisler, Tom Boejland (Silcon Power Electronics A/S))
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Hi all 505�ers
I have crewed on a 14", and the kite on this boat is a
pain to get up (the crew hoist the kite in these boats
and the helm put�s the pole out)
I normally drive, but i have crewed in the 505, and at
least in my boats, it is much easier the get the pole out
and the spinnaker up.
I Denmark i don�t think we will have one more sailor because
we goes asymetric, i think we will destroy the class for
newcomers who want�s an old cheap boat, if we go asymetric
we will have to change the exsisting boats a lot to fit a
pole in the bow, which is a lot of work.
Wait and lets us see what the IRC shows in Hyannis, then we
can have the discussion.
About weight equalisation system�s, if i where a helm on
95 and my crew was on 75 kg, i will be on the wire!!!
Tom Bojland
DEN - 8622
Subj: Re: 505world Future of the class
Date: 98-03-01 14:15:39 EST
From: [email protected] (Detlef Ihmels)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Bill Green wrote:
Christian et al,
> We have a great boat, can't we just leave it alone?
> This seems to come and more
Thank you Bill for your statement.
I agree completely, you stated exactly what I'm thinking!
I don't think we should change basic features of our boat!
Johan, is it a good idea to discuss again all this stuff
around weight and asymetrical spinnakers??
Christian, are you sure its the weight jacket and/or setting
the pole, what killed the backs of your crews?? I'm sailing
with my girl friend Barbara ( rather less than 70kg), ok,
she is shouting sometimes, but not in the way that she is
suffering because of the work on board --- more because
I'm not allways a gentleman during sailing. :-(
regards, Detlef
Detlef Ihmels
Paderborn,Germany
505:
GER 8582
Subj: 505world Crew weight
Date: 98-03-01 17:44:22 EST
From: [email protected] (Markus M�hlbauer)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Sorry everywhere - but I'm sailing with a girl. So I'm
not representative to the 505, I don't feel disadvantaged,
because I choosed that by my own.
Usually I agree to Johan Backsin in equalising weight,
but but who can help me in winds above 4Bft. Im my
opinion its much more easy to handle a few kilos too
much then too less. I had some experience with a heavy
weight munster. It worked quiet well, till we stoped
having fun. Think of all those british guys with a few
kilos more then really needed - it works quiet well
except on shoppy conditions with middle or low winds.
Johans system works good on a light weight boat,
sensible on stability like 14 18 or 49. But the 505 is
like a tank. We should target on reducing the boat
weight - not a few kilos, take a lot of them. This might
be the point, where equalizing weight might work.
Detlef its always the time to discuss evolution.
An this is to Johan:
We were able to shorten starting-line last year till
you left us. There is no boat using 4 meters from leeward
to anybodys head
(he is 2.1x meters high).
see you
Markus M�hlbauer
GER 8671
From: [email protected] (Markus M�hlbauer)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Christian, are you sure its the weight jacket and/or setting the pole,
what killed the backs of your crews??
I'm sailing with my girl friend Barbara (rather less than 70kg),
ok, she is shouting sometimes, but not in the way that she is
suffering because of the work on board --- more because I'm not
allways a gentleman during sailing. :-(
I'm quiet shure, that most of those injuries come from
incompetence of training. Lots of my former training partners in Laser or FD didn't train
their backs - they just went out for sailing , putting their weight jackets on - roaching
oaching how fare can we go? Don't we sit in the office all the day? And on the weekend we
go out. Weight jackets -I really miss them - are for completly trained sailors. All we do
is hobby. Regards Markus
Subj: 505world Crew weight, boat modifications, etc
Date: 98-03-01 23:09:05 EST
From: [email protected] (Marcus Ward)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
At 11:19 PM 3/1/98 +0100, you wrote:
Sorry everywhere - but I'm sailing with a girl.
So I'm not representative to the 505, I don't feel
disadvantaged, because I choosed that by my own.
I am too, and I don't feel disadvantaged either. If
I start to sail so well that I'll be winning the NA' s
or Worlds, I'll get new crew, or stretch her out and
fatten her up! :)
I realize I should be on the wire, but I was sick of
being crew.
Please don't change the boat, I just bought mine and
I really couldn't afford it. (How many I14's have been
made vs how many 505's?)
As for crew weight equalization, does it really make
THAT much difference? I wouldn't know, so this is a
serious question. Somehow I doubt 10kg extra in my
boat is going to make a difference. People like Ali
might benefit, but your average Joe (most of the 505
class, near as I can tell) probably would benefit
more from smoother hull and foils, steering skills,
new sails, and less weight aloft.
$0.02, for what's it's worth.
Marcus Ward
505 US 7569
http://www.throb.net/mward/
Central Missouri State University
I also sail with 'my girl' and we took this choice
by ourself and we are quiet happy with that.
Detlef its always the time to discuss evolution.
Markus, I do not say that we should not discuss it but
there are certain features who makes a 505 a "505" and
one of this is the spinnaker system and in my opinion
we should stay with this features.
Either we accept certain basics or we are defining a
different class. Changing spinnaker SIZES, pole length,
weight of the boat and so on, may be fine but for example
allowing carbon masts, using a completly different spi
system is as I think a change of the basic characteristics
of the "505" (sorry, I don't want to restart the mast
discussion with this remark!).
regards, Detlef
(looking forward for meeting a lot of you in Cavalaire :-)) )
Detlef Ihmels
Paderborn,Germany
505: GER 8582
Subj: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-02 05:46:42 EST
From: [email protected] (Christian LIPPI)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Dear Bill
Bill Green wrote :
We have a great boat, can't we just leave it alone?
Dear Bill and al
Would you have said this when alloy masts came up to
replace wooden masts, when Dacron came up to replace
cotton sails, when we allowed composite materials
(Kevlar, carbon fiber, epoxy resin), not to mention
spinnaker shute, ball bearing blocks, ratchets, ...
I even remember some people in favour of banning
adjustable shrouds !
This boat is great because the class has allowed
her to take new technologies and new ideas into
account. I am convinced that within a few years a
lot of changes will be accepted to make sure the
boat can compete with the new designs such as the
49ers, Lasers and other one design boats.
The imagination of the 505 sailors is limitless (we
share this with some other classes such as the Fireball
and the International 14 classes) : this is the main
reason why this boat is still alive and very attractive.
Further more, if we make the boat easier to handle,
we may see more and more couples (husband and wife,
dad and young son) sailing the boat on a competitive
basis.
How many sailors had to give up 505 because their wives
were fed up waiting next to the boat's park each day of
their annual holidays not to mention saturdays and
sundays not to mention too the hours spent in traffic
jams. When you live north of Potters Bar, and you have
to tell your wife or girl friend she will have to spent
her Bank holiday on Hayling Hayland or Brighton marina
boat park, you have to be very persuasive. You have to
imagine how happy girls are to live with a 505 freak.
Think of the support they give when the boat is due
for renewal.
I am convinced that we would see more boats on the
water if they were easier to handle.
Christian Lippi
F8444
Subj: Re: 505world Future of the class
Date: 98-03-02 07:12:12 EST
From: [email protected] (simonlsmith)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (5o5world)
When i first sailed a 5o5, too many moons ago
(Peter White was worldchamp), the experience was
profound... never had i been in a boat that was so
fast, so exciting yet remained under control. Bottom
line this was pretty much the case until about 5 years
ago when sailing reached a watershed in its evolution
and assymetrics came into mainstream sailing. It is
easy to accept the arguements put forward by current
owners and sailors that if it aint broke don't fix it,
but what are tomorrow's sailors going to think?
Yesterday was a perfect mild winter's sailing day and
there WASN'T anyone under the age of 25 sailing a
symetrical spinnakered boat (actually that
could be 35), they were all out sailing their RS's,
ISO's, 4000's and
having an absolute ball. These are tomorrow's sailors
and the sad truth is that they are not going to want to
sail symetrical spinnakered boats (same argument could
be levelled at the Fireball). Where then will this
leave the 5o5 and its sailors 10 years hence?
simon smith..... Burghfield SC - England
(1.96 meters &
118 kgs!)
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-02 10:36:38 EST
From: [email protected] (Bill Green)
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505 Mail List)
Would you have said this when alloy masts came up
to replace wooden masts, when Dacron came up to replace
cotton sails, when we allowed composite materials
(Kevlar, carbon fiber, epoxy resin), not to mention
spinnaker shute, ball bearing blocks, ratchets, ...
I even remember some people in favour of banning
adjustable shrouds !
I don't think I was alive then, so I can't comment there.
But there is a difference between refining the boat, and
reinventing the boat. Being a single trapeze, symmetric
spinnaker, relatively heavy (compared to what it could be),
aluminum masted, not fully battened boat, we will not
attract people looking for the hottest, fastest boat
in the world. But realistically, how many of these people
are there, and would they stay with the class, or just
move on to something faster when it comes around? My guess
is they would move on, probably to the next olympic boat.
Right now we have a boat that is appealing to a newcomer
to sailing as well as seasoned experts. As the Nicholsons
and Cam Lewis have clearly shown us, even the best enjoy
racing the 505...and they don't even get paid for it.
Compared to other boats, the 505 is no longer the high
speed demon that it once was, now there are other high
speed demon boats like the 49er. But I don't think you
can go from learning to sail in a sunfish to piloting a
49er. The 505 fills the gap between them. I think the
505 is about the fastest boat that mere mortals (read:
not pros) can still sail competitively.
Now keep in mind, I am not against change at all. I am
against change for the sake of change. I fully support
the new spinnaker (if it works) because the idea is you
are gaining down wind speed without sacrificing current
reaching ability. In all the changes that were mentioned
above (sails, blocks, epoxy) there was a "without" that
I'm sure was considered. Everything had to make the boat
better *without* changing the nature of the beast or
adding lots of extra cost and obsoleting existing boats.
There are lots more "old" boats that are raced now then
there were then because boats last longer, and the class
has a broader range of abilities now.
I think all potential areas and reasons for changing the
boat should be strongly and seriously considered, but I
think our goal should be to refine the boat while still
keeping its overall character. If you change the boat a
lot you will see a split in the class, like what happened
in the I-14s where the new fast boats are raced against
each other and the old (current 505s) are raced against
each other.
This does not strengthen the class and should be avoided.
Bill Green
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-02 13:46:10 EST
From: [email protected] (Marcus Ward)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
How many sailors had to give up 505 because their
wives were fed up waiting next to the boat's park each
day of their annual holidays not to mention saturdays
and sundays not to mention too the hours spent in
traffic jams.
Wellll, unable to watch an arguement without putting
my 2 cents in, or
keeping my foot out of my mouth...
My girlfriend just read this and said, "Get a new
girlfriend/wife." I agree with her. Know what my
girlfriend got for valentines day? Ali's stratos mast.
Was she mad? No. She understood. I've sanded parts in
her apartment, painted, epoxied, etc. At one time, her
apartment looked like a boat shop. She was
incredibly understanding. Maybe I'm just real lucky.
having an absolute ball. These are tomorrow's
sailors and the sad truth is that they are not going
to want to sail symetrical spinnakered boats (same
argument could be levelled at the Fireball). Where
then will this leave the 5o5 and its sailors 10 years
hence?
Unless I'm mistaken, the asyms are easier to fly.
I've never flown one, only syms.
This is the age of Nintendo and Mtv! These kids have
attention spans that last MAYBE a whole music video.
The fact that they're out sailing is amazing. They
want instant gratification. Why do you think there
are so many of those damn PWC's? Instant gratification.
Turn the throttle and go. No mast to put up, no lines
to run, etc etc. And this is fine with me! I don't
want those people sailing, becaues they won't 'get it'.
I ENJOY complication. I'm inherently a tinkerer. I
brew my own beer, why? Not because it's easy! I use
Linux rather than Windows. Why? It's not easier!
Probably because I love to tinker with it. It does
more things.
The guy who invented the mouse said this once. He
was speaking of computers, but I'm sure it applies
in this situation: Any time you make something easier
to use, you limit it's versatility.
As Bill Green said, the advances that have been accepted
into the 505 class are ones that keep with the defining
principle of the boat, not ones that radically alter the
nature of the boat. If you want to get into a development
class, and change the boat around all the time, buy an I14.
I'm sure they'd love to have another member. What is
their highest sail number? 1xxx?? You think the 505
has 8 times as many boats made for no reason? And the
I14 claims to be 100 years old! Look at these classes,
do they have a lot of members? NO. Are they going to have
a lot of members?
Probably not, if the history of the I14 is any indication.
What may seem like a good idea for attracting new members
may be in all actuality what keeps them away.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Marcus Ward
505 US 7569
http://www.throb.net/mward/
Central Missouri State University
Subj: SV: 505world weight, modifications...
Date: 98-03-02 13:54:35 EST
From: [email protected] (Gunnersen, Anders)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] ('Detlef Ihmels')
CC: [email protected] ('505 Mail List')
I�m not a 505-sailor, but i have been following your
debate around modifying the rig, mast, sails, whatever!!.
Before you continoue this discussion, I�d like you to think
about the following:
Its not about been faster, tighter, lighter an so on...
its about getting more people and boats on the water!!!
So, who do you want to recrute??
Do you wan�t to "steel" 14, 18 or 49 sailors or potential
sailors, by throwing 30 kg. of the boat, getting a assym.
spi (and/or getting olympic), increasing the costs, and be
attractive because of a tiny bit more speed and a tiny bit
more action?
Or do you want to appeal to a larger spectre of people, by
offering a stabile class with a lot of competition, a lot
af races and a lot of competitors?
I would surely prefer the last.
The boat that i�m sailing has a weigth of 218 kg (436 lbs),
is the same size as the 505, but has approx. half the area
of sail, with other words, a heavy & slow old lady. Still
the class is the biggest 2-man-dinghy-class in Denmark, and
has been it for 50 years. This alone causes the recrution
of the class. Young (and older) people who enter the class
because of the competion it offers. And no matter how slow
and heavy it is, if all boats are alike, it will still be
the best sailors that win.
I�m strongly thinking of buying a 505, and I�m not worryed
about action and speed, but more about the prices and the
cost of been competitive (note that a new 505 looses about
half its value in 3-4 years!!).
Paul Elvstrom once said that the 505 is and will be the
most perfect dinghy of all times. Don�t change that, count
on it and use your effort in convincing people like me,
by stabilising the class and getting more people on the water.
I hope you dont mind me entering you intra-class-discussion,
not having all arguments in mind.
Anders
Subj: Re:SV: 505world weight, modifications...
Date: 98-03-02 16:30:11 EST
From: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (Gunnersen; Anders), [email protected] ('Detlef Ihmels')
CC: [email protected] ('505 Mail List')
I think Anders opinion is well put. After all, what is
it about the Lightning and Snipe (and Thistle in the US)
classes that draw so many great sailors? Well, it's not
really the boat as much as it is the class organizations.
These classes offer the best organization and management.
In my opinion, new 505 recruits in the US are drawn to
the class because it's a superb boat sailed by great
sailors. The 505 offers a unique blend of high performance
and tactics with or without performance enhancements.
A dramatic change to the 505 doesn't ensure a dramatic
improvement to the class. New designs come and go. Some
of them are great boats, but they still fail because there's
no infrastructure to support them. The 505 can't continue
to prosper on it's design merits alone - whether we make
changes or not. I think it's better for the class to
foster administrative development from the fleet level to international.
Jesse Falsone
Secretary/Treasurer, 505 American Section
---------------------Reply Separator------------------
Subject: SV: 505world weight, modifications...
Author: "Gunnersen; Anders" "[email protected]"
Date: 3/2/98 6:39 PM
I'm not a 505-sailor, but i have been following your
debate around modifying the rig, mast, sails, whatever!!.
Before you continoue this discussion, I'd like you to
think about the following:
Its not about been faster, tighter, lighter an so on...
its about getting more people and boats on the water!!!
So, who do you want to recrute??
Do you wan't to "steel" 14, 18 or 49 sailors or potential
sailors, by throwing 30 kg. of the boat, getting a assym.
spi (and/or getting olympic), increasing the costs, and be
attractive because of a tiny bit more speed and a tiny bit
more action?
Or do you want to appeal to a larger spectre of people, by
offering a stabile class with a lot of competition, a lot
af races and a lot of competitors?
I would surely prefer the last.
The boat that i'm sailing has a weigth of 218 kg (436 lbs),
is the same size as the 505, but has approx. half the area
of sail, with other words, a heavy & slow old lady. Still
the class is the biggest 2-man-dinghy-class in Denmark, and
has been it for 50 years. This alone causes the recrution
of the class. Young (and older) people who enter the class
because of the competion it offers. And no matter how slow
and heavy it is, if all boats are alike, it will still be
the best sailors that win.
I'm strongly thinking of buying a 505, and I'm not worryed
about action and speed, but more about the prices and the
cost of been competitive (note that a new 505 looses about
half its value in 3-4 years!!).
Paul Elvstrom once said that the 505 is and will be the most
perfect dinghy of all times. Don't change that, count on it
and use your effort in convincing people like me, by
stabilising the class and getting more people on the water.
I hope you dont mind me entering you intra-class-discussion,
not having all arguments in mind.
Anders
Subj: Re: SV: 505world weight, modifications...
Date: 98-03-02 18:31:49 EST
From: [email protected] (Alimeller)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Dear Anders,
I tried to send this directly to you, but was not
successfull, hence this attempt to the 505world list..
In a message dated 98-03-02 13:54:35 EST, you write:
I�m strongly thinking of buying a 505, and I�m not
worryed about action and speed, but more about the prices
and the cost of been competitive (note that a new 505
looses about half its value in 3-4 years!!).
Paul Elvstrom once said that the 505 is and will be
the most perfect dinghy of all times. Don�t change that,
count on it and use your effort in convincing people
like me, by stabilising the class and getting more people
on the water.
I hope you dont mind me entering you intra-class-discussion,
not having all arguments in mind.
Thank you very much for your comments. I - and the
other class officers - are very much interested in
hearing what not-currently-racing-505 sailors think.
Any 505 sailor who thinks about it is going to want
to hear opinions from those who do not currently race
505s, but who might. How else are we going to grow the
class?
My personal opinion is that the 505 is today the best all
round two person high performance racing dinghy and class
AS IT CURRENTLY IS.. and I am not in favor of changes,
especially changes that obsolete existing boats. Most of
the changes proposed cannot be retrofitted onto existing
505s. However, if a majority of the class want a change,
I will go along with it.
Somewhat contrary to your concern about 505s losing value,
I find that the 505 has incredible longevity at the top
levels, and do hold their value. I have not bought a
new boat in some time, as my current boats last so well...
my "new" 505 is a 1989 Waterat, and my "old boat" is a
1980 Lindsay hull finished by Waterat. The "old" boat
finished 7th at the recent World Championship. It is no
heavier than when it was new, and seems to be a stiff as
when new...
Longevity depends to some extent on how the boat was built
and in what materials... Many years ago, some 505s had
competitive lifespans of 1-2 years.. now, fully cored
epoxy 505s built since 1978 seem to have very long
lifespans.. the first of these boats built are still racing!
505s are much better built than the other dinghies I am
familar with.... the Albacore and Laser I have are junk
compared to the 505s.
The last 505 I sold, I bought used and sold a few months
later for what I had spent on it. The previous boat I bought new and sold at 12 years of
age, for slightly less than I paid for it (ignoring inflation). 7200 would probably sell
for MORE than what it would have sold for new, and 8263 for not much less than what I paid
for it.
Not all new 505s today are fully cored epoxy... but the
better built 505s (there are about 8 builders around the world), last a very long time.
All you have to do is replace lines as they wear and fix the "dings". Cheers,
Alexander "Ali" Meller VP International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association 505s
7200 & 8263 Albacore 4862 Laser 11166
Subj: 505world Re: Weight; future of the class, & other
important stuff
Date: 98-03-02 19:29:01 EST
From: [email protected] (Dean, John G)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] ('5o5 List')
I have been reading the mail (Ref. especially the sequence
that led up to Marcus Ward's comments, and others who sail
with lightweight crew / "girl crew") and also the appeal to
hear from 5o5's that do not race or seldom race. So that
is me... though I plan to race this year in local races.
I too "sail with a girl" for crew...a young woman who is a
very good athlete but is new to sailing. My boat does not
suffer because of the crew weight, even though she is about
55kg. (my guess) and I am 65kg. What I need is a better
hand on the tiller and sheet. Until I develop a minimum
of that, weight, tuning, etc. are not very important.
Meanwhile, Theresa is glad to go sailing regularly, does
her part well, and is improving faster than I am. I think
the best thing I can do for the fleet is to get her "hooked"
on 5o5's so she will buy one and beat all of you guys (and me).
But, about the spinnakers: mine is rigged with a trolly
(a bungee around the mast back to the end of the boom on
both sides, and a trolley block on the aft end of the pole...
the block rides the bungee). Theresa can set it and gybe
it smoothly and quickly in any wind that I can keep the
boat upright in...(so far, not a very strong wind). But
I expect she will keep up with any improvements I manage.
An asymetric spinnaker is not needed.
As to weight: We do not even know what difference more or
less weight might do. Of course, she does not wear weight.
So far, and for yet a long time, our limits are caused by my
hand on the tiller and sheet; and on the wind force where I
"chicken out". Do any weight rules you want, but all we
will be able to do is blindly comply because we will not
know what it does to us or for us. It will be far less trouble
for us if you make no new rules for weight (even though, if
I read the mail correctly, weight rules are being talked about
as something needed to make it "fair" for light crews like us...)
This is an old boat that would not be worth modifying for
a bowsprit. I think it would be a bad idea to drastically
alter the sail plan or the hull structure.
John Dean
US5518 "Miss Scarlet"
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-02 19:31:08 EST
From: [email protected] (Chris Thorne)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (Christian LIPPI)
CC: [email protected]
Christian LIPPI wrote:
You have to imagine how happy girls are to live with a
505 freak. Think of the support they give when the boat is
due for renewal. I am convinced that we would see more boats
on the water if they were easier to handle.
Christian Lippi
F8444
Christian - Have you ever tried flowers and chocolates?
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-02 23:30:15 EST
From: [email protected] (PSMohler)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
In a message dated 98-03-02 13:46:31 EST, marcus writes:
buy a 14
I'm sure they'd love to have another member. What is their
highest sail number? 1xxx?? You think the 505 has 8 times
as many boats made for no reason?
just to clarify, the I14's number boats by nation, not
world. also first ISAF dinghy class, 100 yrs in AUS.
i like 505s, It's the second best boat in the world.
(joke .. no snakes please)
Pete Mohler
I14 / US measurer
Subj: 505world Re: Crew weight
Date: 98-03-03 02:58:53 EST
From: [email protected] (Chris Romans)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Despite being at a disadvantage in the weight distribution
stakes I don't agree with the idea of weight equalisation
systems.
At 6'2" and 85 kgs I'm a reasonable size for a 505 crew -
although I helm; and have a crew who is 5'6" (who will kill
me if I say what weight she is) but is definitely a lot
lighter than I am. We have tried sailing with me crewing
(which I enjoy) but we do better with me helming, and
Bren's preference for crewing is sronger than mine.
Whilst we are obviously at a disdvantage, under most
circumstances we can still compete and enjoy competing
and sailing the boat.
I believe that when people decide on the type of boat
they want to sail they choose based on number of crew,
no - single - double trapeze, performance, cost, can they
handle the boat and what is sailed locally. I think
a weight equalisation system would be low down on most
people's list.
A good weight equalisation system would take the total
crew weight and then add weight into the boat to make the
all up sailing weight of each boat identical, and then use
racks or wings or whatever to give each crew the same
theoretical righting moment. On a 505 you could do the
first but you cannot do the second without altering the
boat significantly and therefore I do not believe it is
feasible to introduce a weight equalisation system for
the 505.
What we need to do is work hard on trying to keep the
costs of buying and owning a 505 as low as possible and
also get as many people of all skill levels sailing the boat
AT CLUB LEVEL - and that means those of us who own 505s
taking people out in them. The 505 is a superb boat, and
whilst it doesn't have the performance of some of the newer
boats it is a boat which can be sailed in virtually any
conditions and enjoyed by a wide range of people.
Chris Romans
GBR 8467
Subj: 505world 5o5 Class & Asym debate
Date: 98-03-03 10:27:15 EST
From: [email protected] (Peter Epstein)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505world)
Anders Gunnersen wrote,
"Paul Elvstrom once said that the 505 is and will be
the most perfect dinghy of all times. Don't change that,
count on it and use your effort in convincing people
like me, by stabilising the class and getting more
people on the water."
This statement also appears on the "getting into the 5o5"
web page, if I am not mistaken. When we were doing our
research on which class of boat to acquire for our
community club; we looked at Fireball, 470,420, I14,
Hobie, and more. Our club has 16 Albacores and we
decided that the 5o5 was the class which offered
speed, technical challenge, and transferability of
skill set. We bought a 5o5 2 years ago and we are
about to buy another.
Although the Toronto area was once busier with 5o5
sailors I believe there is renewed interest in the class.
I was speaking with a boat builder who said suggested
that the participation in the 5o5 class was much lower
and that as a performance dinghy the 5o5 really did not
have great participation. From personal experience
and that of the March issue of "Sailing World" I beg
to differ.
On page 52, the 5o5 ranked 64 of 170 class associations
for participation (North America); the Albacore ranked
129. Additionally, class growth numbers for centerboard
boats were published on the following page; 5o5 +38% v.
Albacore -30%.
I do not believe that as a 5o5 sailor I have to have a
boat that incorporates the "latest and greatest". The
design is sound, the class is growing, and the sailors
love it. If an asymetrical spinny's benefits to the
class outweigh those of staying with the current design
we should not dismiss a change purely for tradition's
sake. Perhaps it would be interesting to see a
prototype built/retrofitted with an asym and race
it against the current design. This way we would
have the opportunity to collect objective race
data as well as subjective handling and performance
data from the sailors themselves.
However, as Anders and Marcus pointed out, the I14
class is perhaps an example of what not to do.
Regards,
Peter
Peter Epstein
Fleet Captain
St. JamesTown Sailing Club
Toronto, ON Canada
Subj: 505world Boat handling and Crew weight
Date: 98-03-03 11:16:22 EST
From: [email protected] (Tuten, James M)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
505'ers
A number of good points have been made over the last couple
of days regarding weight and class changes. My history and
opinion follow. One of the things we must remember is that
the 505 fleet is a very talented and deep fleet. Where else
do you see Olympic caliber sailors finishing in the middle
of the pack?.
I have been sailing a 505 for something over 15 yrs. I
started sailing with my wife and we did very well locally
for a number of years with an old boat. (We started
sailing in a 5o.) The fun was great and the $ were low
while we learned to handle the boat and keep it upright.
I can't count how many races and regatta's where our
finish was determined by just keeping it pointy end up.
We did several NA's and always had a pack at the back to
race with. The newbie's and classic boats stuck
together, not especially by choice!
We outgrew boat #1 and purchased boat #2 for twice the
money. We progressed and did better until kids took her
out of the boat. (Crew is easier to find than baby sitters!)
We were able to do big water and still have a good time.
We could lead the newbie's and Classic's most of the
time. Weight was not as much of a factor as conditioning
and boat handling skills in heavy wind and waves. Over
the time I progressed from scared s---less in 20+ winds
to "OK it's finally blowing, let's go!
I am now looking at boat #3 for twice the money I paid for
boat #2. I have progressed to the point where a better boat
will help me move up a few notches and is worth the expense.
Do I expect to jump to the head of the fleet? No way.
But I will continue to have fun and my old boat will provide
fun to another new guy until he outgrows it. We need to
keep this progression going and help people realize that
a good sailor is not necessarily going to do well right
out of the box in a 5o. The boat requires finesse. Most
people don't have the resources to drop $15K for a
superboat as they enter the class. I'm not sure its
smart to do so even if one has the money. A superboat
only allows you to make a mistake or two and stay out of last.
The fleet is too skilled and deep to let anyone buy their
way to the top. The finesse required to do well is earned
through practice, and what a wonderful thing to have to
practice!
One of my happier sailing moments was leaving a pair of
multiple time class champions from another fleet in the
dust at a major regatta. They had sailed 505's and moved
on to another fleet where they did very well. They thought
they were great sailors, knew tactics, etc, and could go
back and place well at the National level in a 505 using
their new found experience. It was really nice pulling
away from them while they flopped around the course.
They left the regatta after a couple of days of bringing
up the rear and were suitably humbled.
As has been stated it is usable in all conditions. The true
balance of the boat is best shown on flat water in 5-8kt of
wind. In those conditions the boat will glide around a
course without barely a ripple. While those conditions may
not appeal to all, the boat has the grace and movement
of a ballerina under those conditions. It is truly a
thing of beauty as it passes those other one-designs in
a pursuit race. Its fun too! The same is true of 20+
winds, it just happens a little quicker.
The 505 is a great boat with a long life and a place for
every boat. We must not make changes that obsolete the
existing boats and the classics. As far as weight, the
boat itself is the great equalizer. Skill and finesse will
beat a little extra weight every time. (It's been shown
again and again) There is no magic bullet or equalizer, no
substitute for being one with the boat.
Jim Tuten
US 7857
Subj: Re: 505world Re: Spreader Length
Date: 98-03-03 11:25:23 EST
From: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
All this talk about development of the 505 reminds me of
an old Parker I saw recently in the south of France. I
have asked a friend to scan the relevant photographs onto
his web-page. Those with some time on their hands may
want to have a look at:
http://nicewww.cern.ch/~poulsens/various-files/photos/5o5photos.htm
Subj: 505world Jim Tuten's comments
Date: 98-03-03 12:01:49 EST
From: [email protected] (Rick H. Blase)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected] (Richard Blase)
After reading two days worth of these messages, I have
finally read something that matches my feelings exactly.
Going fast is great, but doing it with style is much
better. Everytime I take this boat out, I learn something
new. That makes me look forward to the next time. Sometimes
its enough to just cruise around. Othertimes, you just
want to crank it up. This boat answers all of that. I got
into this class as much for the boat as for the people
in the class. Actually the boat was on the low end of
the decision in a sense. The people I have met on the
net and at regattas are concerned about helping me learn
to sail the 505, not about going faster than me. When I
went to the first regatta, I wanted to do well. I wanted
to be a contender. Now after having done a couple, I just
want to improve. (actually after the first regatta, I just
wanted to finish a race). The people I have met have gone
out of their way to make that not only happen, but an
enjoyable experience. Thats what this is really about
for me and people like me. The experience. I'll never
race in the Olympics, but I could certainly race in the
Worlds if I wanted. This class gives me that opportunity.
It doesn't make me out to be a loser or inconsequential.
I have an old boat circa 1972 Ballenger. There are
things that I wish were different about it. Better
sails, different rigging, new foils, etc. but in our last
race at the Hoosier regatta last fall, we read the wind
differently than anyone else. We were in the right
place on the course with the right trim and the right
time and for one leg of the race we passed four boats to
put us in fourth place. We finished dead last in that
regatta overall. But we still talk about that leg of the
race as if it was the culmination of a life long experience.
At that point in time we knew that it could be done.
It was one of the most exhilirating feelings I have ever
had. We'll be back and we will continue to improve
until we can sail this boat the best way we can. Thats
why I sail. If the class changes to make my boat obsolete
and the people who race the 505 become concerned with
speed for speeds sake, then you have lost me and others
like me. Make changes in the class to improve the
experience of sailing and you will have the best of both
worlds.
As for those people we raced with last year, thank you for
the experience, but keeping looking over your shoulder.
We're gaining on you.
"AARRRGGHHHH!"
RICK
US 5815 'the Wile Ride'
"Remember The Sponge!"
**********************************************************
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm............. Publilius Syrus
**********************************************************
Subj: 505world Changing the 505: Procedure
Date: 98-03-03 16:50:52 EST
From: [email protected] (Alimeller)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
I think the recent discussion regarding possible changes to
the 505... weight equalization, asymmetric spinnakers, etc.
is excellent. I am very pleased that our e-mail list
allows so many of us to express our opinions and
concerns.. and that it is not just the 505 sailors
participating in an annual meeting at a World Championship
expressing their concerns and opinions.
However, all the discussion about changing the 505 class may
be alarming to some current and prospective 505 sailors. I
have heard of one team in New England that were ready to
buy a 505, but after following last year's e-mail
discussion regarding reducing the all up weight, concluded
it was too risky to buy a used 505 (which could be made \
obsolete overnight), and chose another class.
To calm people with concerns about changes in the 505, I
would like to point out that the only way changes will be
made in the 505 class rules, is if a motion is made at
the annual meeting, discussed, passed on a vote, and then
sent out to a postal ballot, where a majority of returned
ballots support it.
This means that the 505 class rules - and therefore the 505
itself - will not change without considerable discussion, and
votes at both the annual meeting and by postal ballot. All
class members - or boat owners (depending on what the possible
change is) have a say and a vote. The concerns of the owner
of 505 #9 count for just as much as those of a World Champion
who just bought a brand new 505.
This is YOUR class, and all of you have valid opinions and
concerns, and all of you have equal right to express your
opinions and concerns, and to vote on changes.
So, no changes will be made without you having a say and
an opportunity to vote.
To my knowledge very few substantive changes have been made
in the 505 in its approximately 45 year history, though the
class rules have allowed evolutionary changes in the boat, to
take advantage of improved materials and
construction.
In summary, the boat will only change if a majority of class
members want it to change, and no 505s will be made obsolete
without a majority of the class voting to do so. Those of
you considering the purchase of an older 505 should not
be assuming that change is imminent and that the boat you
are thinking about buying will be obsolete. We will
always be debating how to improve the class - especially
when its winter time and we are not sailing 505s enough.
That does not mean that a majority of the class will vote
to make the change.
Whatever happens, we move forward together. I have great
faith in the class membership making the right decisions for
the class.
Regards,
Ali Meller
VP International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives (fwd)
Date: 98-03-03 20:35:57 EST
From: [email protected] (thomas c price)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505)
CC: [email protected] (PSMohler)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:27:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Thomas C Price ([email protected])
To: PSMohler ([email protected])
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and cooperative wives
I bought a 505 last Spring precisely because it wasn't a Fourteen.
I think that most members of the 505 class realize what
they've got going for them, but as a 505 newbie and
former Fourteen devotee and owner for over 15 years,
let me just offer this. Each class offers different
kinds of sailing. Neither is better, but each can
be more suitable depending on what particular jollies
you are after. For the 505s to consider taking a small
aspect of the modern 14 without considering the whole
package is ludicrous.
And the 505 can never be and should never be a Fourteen.
In the mid 70s the Fourteens were off the pace of a well
sailed 505 in all conditions but light air and running.
To soup up the boats, the class adopted a longer pole
and girthier chute in the late 70's. Upwind, still
slower. So they went to two trapezes. Better upwind
and reaching, but still slower. Some wags suggested
that maybe with 3, or 4 trapezes, they might be as fast
as a 505. Then they took a good look at their
Antipodean cousins at the worlds in Long Beach who
were invited. Dagger boards, reduced weight, and --
the asymmetrical kite! Serendipity! The combination
really lit the boats up, and then with a further move
to masthead kites and 9' poles, the 14s are always
faster than the 505 now, ......when they are upright.
And there is the difference. The 505 offers 75 to 90 %
of the performance depending on the conditions, but
is a well mannered boat, very sailable in 20+ knots.
In some ways I certainly have found it more demanding
than the Fourteen. It has to be MADE to go fast and
if you have something wrong the boat is noticably
slower - but still feels good. The other dinghy in
question is more of a power junkie and is always
nearly up to speed unless you are doing something
stupid - which is easy to do with many
physical distractions. But oh, the speed - the same
feeling as windsurfing, with seemingly sudden death around
the corner. And it's only blowing 18.
My point is, the 505 offers a very different and
significant challenge from the skiff type boats. To
make it sail like one would require many changes,
beyond simply a single luff kite. And it's interior,
freeboard, trunk case and short board would make it a
poor candidate for two wires. I'm very new to the class
and haven't begun to sort things out, but I feel it's
important to point out those very things that drew me
to this class - an attractive boat with a stable
history a good class organization, good serious sailors,
and not so demanding in its physical aspects that I
couldn't contemplate sailing it at (gulp) over age 45.
Regards, Tom Price 8351
Subj: Re: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives (fwd)
Date: 98-03-03 22:30:32 EST
From: [email protected] (Monty Schumpert)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (thomas c price), [email protected] (505)
CC: [email protected] (PSMohler)
Well said, Tom.
Monty
Subj: 505world Yet another opinion
Date: 98-03-04 16:33:37 EST
From: [email protected] (Michael Nolan)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (505)
It was good to read so many sensible opinions coming after
the few radical statements about change.
My brother and I got into 505 sailing a few years ago
and have loved every minute of it (almost). Again we got
into the boat because its format as is suited us perfectly -
we looked at all the other asymmetrics and twin wire boats,
but they did not offer performance in all sea states
throughout the wind ranges - we also felt that some of
them were actually too easy to sail fast in. It took us
ages to stop falling over, breaking bits etc etc, but
eventually we got some money together after we had learnt
some of the speed things and slowly got better.
This also brought the other main attraction to the 505
class, the people - almost everyone has been ready to
help us, even overlooking that our first boat was a heap
steaming ****, helpful advice was always forthcoming.
To most of us these proposed changes would at best do
nothing at worst turn us away through obsolesence, or
the 505 becoming another dull boat from Topper or Laser.
We sailed in the recent Worlds and weighed in the heaviest
boat there (probably ever) We still had a few boats behind
us (by the end of the week quite a few) in spite of about
a 20 kg handicap - we are also heavy (about 27-28 stone),
but in light winds we occasionally (maybe rarely would be
better!!) got it right and stormed past much lighter people
in much lighter boats, that thrill certainly can't be beaten.
505 sailng already comes down to how good a sailor you are,
you don't need weight equalization, you need time on the
water, and a small helping of luck. I must however make a
horrible confession at the end. I am about to sell 8391
as my brother has returned to Australia and, in spite of
all the comments made to the contrary, I find it impossible
to sail with my girlfriend (losing about 100 pounds in crew
weight makes one hell of a difference) and we are moving
into Hobie sailing. But this has ended up proving my point.
I have been sailing the Hobie for a few months and the
speed is absolutley incredible, but my God I miss sailng
the 505 and have already agreed to trade in my tiller for
a trapeze harness to crew a 505 in the Wednesday evening
series at my Club.
Sorry this has been so long, but the 505 is a boat worth
speaking out in favour of, and most importantly all of
us guys (and girls) from the rather more populated back
end of the fleet need to make our views clear
Subj: RE: 505world Wooden masts and cotton sails and
cooperative wives
Date: 98-03-04 16:42:23 EST
From: [email protected] (Hartje, Will)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (Christian LIPPI),
[email protected] ('Chris Thorne')
CC: [email protected]
Chris wrote:
Christian - Have you ever tried flowers and chocolates?
Yes, but he always sends them to someone else's wife!....
I thought the french were very god at the romantic
stuff!!!!!! (they can even speak english when they meet
danish girls at the beach!)
Subj: 505world Changing Class Rules!
Date: 98-03-05 19:29:29 EST
From: [email protected] (Malcolm Pearson)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Hi Everyone,
I have read the varying comments with deep interest over
the last couple of weeks and have agreed with almost everything
that everyone has said on the topic from both sides of the
discussion. There have been some very sound and astute comments
and a couple of you have made some very logical reasons why we
should consider change, with the future sailors in mind.
I won't detail specifically whose comments I appreciated,
you've all read them and each of you would react and respond
to each in a different way.
After absorbing all this heathy discussion ( and it is
healthy discussion - it shows collectively we are a
concerned, thinking group) I was about to sum up with my
thoughts and when I "logged on" I noticed that dear old Ali
( bless his heart ) had pretty much taken my thoughts
completely and expressed in probably better words than
I could muster, how I feel on the topic.
To put it as clearly and as bluntly as I can, let me say that
while I am President, the class will not be under going any
radical change of design rules that is going to obsolete the
majority of the fleet around the world. We should stop
allowing ourselves to be intimidated by the plethora of
"radicals" that are out there all competing for same
"niche" market. I believe "they" have a long way to go to
catch up with the proven track reciord of our class.
Several comments have been made with reference to the I14.
And I think it was a current I14 sailor that stated that the
new I14 came at the cost of obsoleting all the previous
designs. And you know, this might sound a stupid remark,
but I like the way a 505 looks. It's a delight to see it
rigged in the boat park. It's downright sexy to see it turned
on its side or upside down when you are polishing it. I've
been "drooling" over the look of a 505 hull for over 35
years and the excitement has still not diminished. ( I
can't say the same about my wife! {Shit!- I might live
to regret that remark!!}) And I still feel proud to own
such a good looking vessel. (Could you really imagine
owning an I14? They would have to be one of the ugliest
bloody boats I've ever seen.) However, to each his own,
and I'm not about "knocking" other classes.
We need to remember the light in which the class is held
by many of the top yachstman in the world at any time in
the last 35 years. In any given era in that past time
frame and up to today, take a look at the most prominent
names in sailing and be amazed at how many of them have
come through the 505 class and believe the high regard
in which they hold this class as the premier racing
dinghy. I'm not even going to attempt to list them, they are
too many - but I assure you they are there and almost
without exception they freely confess to regretting
having left the class and openly agree that we enjoy
the best truly international competition.
Whilst we must not be "ostriches" and become stagnant and
let a changing world pass us by, we must also be equally
careful not to "throw out the baby with the bath water".
The 505 was conceived as a development class and the
"development" aspect has allowed the class to evolve into
the pretty sophisticated boat that it now is. Just ask
Marcel Buffet if the boat he sails today isn't a good bit
different to the one he sailed in the 1950's.!!!
For those of you who didn't attend the Worlds in Denmark
and have not seen the minutes of the A.G.M. Be informed that
the class is looking to change our spinaker size in an
attempt to make or downwind legs faster and more tactical.
Basically the concept is to make the present 5 metre luff
length a 6 meter luff length. To raise the spinnaker halyard
500mm and lower the pole fitting approx.500mm to acommodate
the increase size. This would need to be done in conjunction
with a revision of courses to provide for the larger
spinnaker. Demonstrations and a report will be made at the
Hyannis Worlds.
If this change does prove to be worthwhile and accepted,
there will be no obsolesence of boats. Changing a couple of
fittings on the mast is no big deal and we all buy a new
spinnaker, if not every year, certainly every second year
anyway. So the cost of making the change is negligible.
So be assured that the International Executive is not about
to bring about any change which will obsolete your boat and
we are not a bunch of purist "old boys" who wont consider change.
I liked very much the comment of "Simonlsmith - 2/3/98" .
Recognising the needs of tomorrow's sailor is something we
need to acknowledge. Paul Elvstrom has lectured me at
length on this topic. Depite his 70 years, Paul is still a
very keen mind and progressive thinker. He and I have
discussed a scenario which I think would see the class grow
for another 50 years. But I'm not prepared to disclose
those thoughts on this medium without first discussing it
with the rest of the International Executive.
One final comment on the topic.
At the end of the day, it is all about COMPETITIVE
RACING. Good competitive racing is what sailors crave.
That is why the Laser in still so popular, and the Snipe
and many other "old" classes.
I really don't believe, as a class, we have a boat problem.
I believe we have a promotion problem. You don't get long
term sailors from color brochures and fancy Ads. You get
them by taking for a ride and blowing their minds.
Holger Jess has grown the German fleet by getting kids,
at the right time of their career, into a 505 for a sail
and getting them hooked.
We must all focus at local club level, of targeting the
juniors and intermediate sailors and giving them a demo ride.
Long emails are a pain! This is enough!!
Good Sailing,
Pip Pearson
International President
P.S. When I first saw all this discussion on the net again
about rule changes etc. I said to myself:- "Hello .. Hello
it must be winter time again in the Northern hemisphere.
It's too cold to sail and the boys are as frustrated as all
hell and want to change the world via the
internet."
Pip:
TEAM SPOT agrees with your comments, and has chosen this
time to bring it's relationship with 505 USA 8643 " out
of the closet." Yes, I admit that my crew and I have
a "special relationship" with this 505 - but its
nothing that a new centerboard gasket and some Mclube
won't fix.
Barney Harris
TEAM SPOT
Centerboard gasket eh? Bailer gasket is more like it from
what
Jesse tells me. No offence
TP
Subj: 505world fully battened mains
Date: 98-03-12 14:39:55 EST
From: [email protected] (Eric Willis)
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
All this talk about improving the 505 (yet again) has me wondering. It
seems to me that a simple modification that would increase performance
and longevity of sails would be to use a fully battened main. If
appearances and image are important to people, it seems to me that not
having a non-fully battened main is the most visible thing that dates
our rig. Technical arguments for it that I can think of off the top of
my head are:
1. Sail longevity
2. Lack of obsolescence of old boats.
3. Lack of hardware modifications required to implement.
4. Increased sail efficiency.
5. Increased rig tunability (I'm not sure if this is true)
I have been windsurfing for a number of years, and the airfoil shaped
windsurfer sails are pretty appealing to me from a technical point of
view.
This would be a pretty simple rule change that would bring our sailplan
further into the modern era. What do people think? I'm personally
content with the way things are currently, but I would consider changing
if need be.
Eric Willis
US 6983
Subj: Re:505world fully battened mains
Date: 98-03-12 15:30:19 EST
From: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (Eric Willis), [email protected]
Eric,
I'm a windsurfer also and I agree in theory, but here are some reasons not to
put full battens on:
1 - increased weight aloft (can be less with very expensive carbon battens).
Note that winsurfers are going to less battens now and, in some cases, no cams.
2 - can't luff sail easily - 505 8643 (the infamous TEAM SPOT) has a combined
skipper/crew weight of 385 pounds. Even being at the upper end of the weight
spectrum, the main is almost totally luffing upwind in 20 knots true wind
(that's at 25' rake and heavy rig tension). Of course, the skipper doesn't hike
much ; ). Full battens would hinder our ability to depower in these conditions.
3 - draft - full battens tend to induce draft and further hinder depowering.
505 mainsails seem to have a competitive life of about 1.5 to 2 years. We
sailed the 1998 Midwinters with the same main we used for the 1997 Midwinters
and didn't feel like we were significantly hindered. That same main was used
the entire year and has many windy days on it (and about 30 capsizes - no joke).
Jesse
505 8643
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