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Retrieving a New
Large Size Spinnaker Active discussion thread on the trial spinnaker going |
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From: Dave and Sheryl Eberhardt Sent: June 22, 2000 To: Chris Hanke Subject: Re: retrieving a new large size spinnaker Chris Hanke wrote: > I didn't realize you needed two patches on the big kite. Is this only if you have a sock setup? Assuming that it's large enough in diameter (larger than the diameter of the aft end of the launcher tube) the sock (present or not) has nothing to do with the problems of retrieving the taller spinnaker. Many boats (including my Ballenger and several others in our fleet, from several builders) have insufficient length between the mouth of the launcher chute (at the bow) and the farthest point aft that the spinnaker can be pulled (in my case, the aft thwart; in other cases, the douse-line cleat.) For that reason, two retrieval patches are necessary to wad up the center of the spinnaker and allow it to fit in the otherwise-insufficient length. Doing that, however, makes the part being pulled into the tube much thicker. Unfortunately many boats, especially early launcher boats, have too narrow a launcher tube (the part built into the boat, impossible to change without major rebuilding.) These small-diameter tubes make it extremely difficult or impossible to pull the doubled center of the spinnaker into the tube. The 505 simply was not designed large enough to use so tall a sail easily in a launcher setup. Using older sails converted to the taller dimensions (a frequent suggestion by big-kite advocates, who falsely claim it as a valid way to get large sails cheaply) worsens the problem since the older, limper sails do not slide in the tube as easily (especially when wet.) I note that those who are pushing the idea the hardest seem to be those to whom that added wasteful expenditure would be either unnecessary (late-model boats with large, roomy launcher tubes and/or plenty of length to accommodate taller spinnakers, and nice new slippery sails) or insignificant (people with enough funds to purchase new sails or boats frequently, or to pay others to do the expensive remodeling or refitting needed.) Again and again proponents have said arrogantly "No problem, I converted my boat for only a couple of dollars, so everyone else can do the same" as if it were not patently obvious that it just ain't so. (We do know how to read a ruler, and have measured our boats and experimented with taller spinnakers, and you just can't put seven pounds of ordure in a five-pound bag no matter how much ordure is sent out claiming you can do it because it'll fit in their seven-pound bags.) These problems are in addition to the other clear and obvious argument against the larger spinnakers: either they DO make the boat go significantly faster (in which case they would force expensive remodeling and the purchase of new sails to remain competitive) or they DO NOT (in which case there is no reason to adopt them.) Either way, this major change in the sailplan (the first since the boat was designed almost half a century ago) is an extremely unwise idea which should be rejected soundly. The "railroaders" pushing it (and utterly ignoring or deriding any arguments to the contrary) should be derailed. --Dave Eberhardt, USA 6570 (ex-861, 2514 etc.) From: Jan Saugmann Dave Eberhardt wrote: > Many boats (including my Ballenger
and several others in our fleet, What is so special about your boat? Is it shorter than everybody elses? I think that everybody at this stage are aware of your oppinion regarding the big spinnaker. If you have a problem sailing with a bigger Spinaker, then dont. I can't remember ever seen your name on any result list, so it cant be a big problem for you to use the smaller spinnaker, when you are cruising back and forth in front of your club. Brgds Jan Saugmann From: Michael Quirk Dave's on-going comments about how big kites will make people who do not wish to purchase the new sail uncompetitive is entirely correct. If you don't buy new sails occassionally you will be uncompetitive. You need a new spinnaker from time to time or you will be creamed by boats with newer sails. To suggest we should not allow the change to the new spinnaker because it makes people with older sails uncompetitive is as stupid as suggesting no one should be allowed to buy new sails any more because it will give them an advantage. In 11 years I have had to spend a fair bit to modify my boat to remain competitive. First I had to go to adjustable shrouds. Then I needed barber hauler systems on the jib. Improved foil designs mean I have had to go to a smaller rudder. The proctor mast set up proved to be better over a wider wind range than the Australian Goldspar I had (which won a number of World titles), so I had to get a new mast. The change to the big spinnaker has been the smallest cost of all. I needed a new spinnaker anyway. Mike Quirk AUS8280 From: Grate Micro OK, I was going to stay out of this, but just one little point......... If we are on a big push to find old boats and get them sailing, don't we want those boats to be competitive as well? If not, whats the fun in sailing a 505 by yourself or with all the other non-competitive boats supposedly sailed by new sailors? Being the only 505 in Missouri is fun as I get alot of questions from local people and I'm not close to being 'competitive' in the 505 world. But I like to think I'm getting there. In fact, I know that to be competitive, the old Ballenger may have to go. But I've seen my sister boat 5818 sail with the best in the Midwest, so I know it can be done. If I have to retrofit for a new spinnaker to stay 'competitive', it wouldn't be worth it for me. I would have to get a new boat. So who is going to buy my old one? Ok, here is a perfectly good 505 you can use as a trainer, but when you get really good, its time to buy a new boat. I will tell you now, there is no way a larger spinnaker will fit in my Ballenger launcher tube. We leave the pole on until the chute is down just to keep it under control and out of the water. It takes my crew to stand up with both spin sheets over his head to help me pull it back out of the chute. Yes, you need to change sails regularly to stay competitive which is some expense. But today, even someone with marginal sails is relatively competitive. A bigger spinnaker, I believe would make this gap even wider, thus making all those older boats either convert to an expensive retrofit of their launchers or set up as a bag boat. To some (and maybe a number of us), its just not worth it. This class prides itself on how older boats are 'competitive', even at the Worlds level. We should be very careful with this issue of the larger spinnaker, so that we don't separate the class. The 505 class's greatest appeal is a versatile boat in wide wind ranges. Its second greatest appeal is that everyone is equal and everyone learns from everyone else. Lets not destroy that. <RICK> US 5816 - "The Wild Ride" TEAM Pirate From: Dan Merino I think this spinnaker thing is getting out of hand... First, Classics play a very important role in fleet building because they are affordable entry level boats. I routinely advise potential new fleet members to buy boats based upon how competitive they want to be. I sell the classic fleet as more casual, laid-back racing, however in recent months the competition amongst them has increased dramatically in our fleet. This has absolutely nothing to do with new sails but more with time spent in the boat. In some cases they beat the newer boats, but once again, this is due to time spent in the boat. These boats I believe are key in building new fleets Second, I really don't think the big chute will effect the classics at all. The proposal for the bigger chute is primarily instigated by those who're more likely sail at a regional, continental or worlds level and let's face it, if you want to be competitive at this level you have to spend the time and money to get there. In the four years I've spent building the fleet, none of our classic boats have spent money on sails, so I very much doubt they'll try to convert to a big chute soon if ever. I think as a class we should realize that not everyone buys a 505 to sail at a worlds level, some buy one just because it's a great boat to sail. This is the reason that our fleet routinely awards trophies for the classic division as well, something I read on the website as being encouraged but I never seem to hear about as being done. Dan Merino ex USA5687 current USA 6991 From: Gordon B England I have been very interested to read the views expressed about both big spinnakers and the development of the class and building of fleets, particularly in the USAsince they are the ones most frequently talked about by e-mail. I have sailed 505's on and off since 1980, basically as a below average club sailor who did do three seasons of open meetings with a reasonably new boat and a good helm but now have returned to sailing and 5-0's after a ten year lay-off with an old boat 7669 and a 5'3" crew weighing about 130lbs. In time we will swap and I will crew but for now this way round means staying upright (more often) in more than a force two. I am sailing at a club where there were 60 505's in the park 15 years ago and there are 10 now. We have lots of Laser 4000's, RS 800's, Iso Buzz, etc you get the picture. These boats are often, not to say mostly, sailed by 'mixed' crews with males on the wire as often as females. They are mostly youngish, well compared to me everybody is youngish, and they are much the same as the crowd that sailed in the 80's in 5-0's. If they are going to be encouraged to sail a 505, which clearly they should be, then I think a number of things have to happen. There has to be fleet racing not handicaps. There has to be a pool of second hand boats which can be made to go as quickly as the owners want. They have to be manageable with a variety of crew weights, by exploiting the great sophistication of a 505, and they do not need to feel blown away by money. There is one observable limitation to the 4000 type of boat and that is it's upper wind limit. We have run races for asymmetries in force 6 where the masts just collapse as you cannot depower the boat effectively enough. There must be considerable scope for this to be a problem with a bigger spinnaker, which would spoil the fun. It also puts up costs of an otherwise very reasonable priced (second hand) very high performance dinghy. We are sailing with a recent Genoa and a nine year old main and kite. I am quite happy to buy used sails, well main and kite anyway, for some time to come but I won't buy a big spinnaker as we will not be able to handle it. We have bags not a chute and it will be even more difficult for the (vertically challenged) crew to control the pulldown. This means that Wednesday evening racing, a very casual and relaxing pastime in the summer will now be less fun as we will inevitably get re-handicapped again and will race in winds were the bigger kite will make a lot more difference. Basically I am voting for conservatism in order to grow the fleet again, and I am basing this a lot on what I read about the growth of fleets in the US which I think is very impressive and obviously the result of a lot of hard work by some really dedicated sailors. I accept that the real competitors want more challenge but I remember a three sail reach with Graham Thomas a while back in at least a force seven and think 'That's enough brown trousering for me'. Hope this lot makes sense. Regards, Gordon ex K5653, K7557 and maintainer of GBR7669 From: Clive Robinson The Big Spinnaker discussion is active again, and why not. I would suggest that most 505 list members already have set views, and no amount of words will change these views. My worry is that some elements of our class are treating the acceptance of the large spinnaker as a foregone conclusion. I sail with possibly the largest club fleet in England, Burton Sailing Club. I have not heard of one Burton sailor in favour of the big spinnaker. I do suggest that in order not risk a future class split in the equipment used, we all keep our options open until after the vote, and are prepared to comply with majority vote. Clive Robinson GBR 8676 From: Ali Meller Now that we have an active discussion thread on the trial spinnaker going, I just wanted to point out that what comes out of this trial -- if accepted at the 2000 Class Annual Meeting and by a postal ballot -- is not necessarily a "bigger spinnaker" but rather a "longer luff" spinnaker. To my knowledge no one in the 505 class is racing with the largest spinnaker the class rules currently allow. Such a spinnaker could be made (and was in the past), but has been proven to be slower on the courses we use. 505 racers are actually using spinnakers that could be described as medium and small in size (lots of top teams have one of each, and choose for the day's conditions). The trial spinnaker measurements do allow a larger spinnaker to be built (as our current rules also do), but I do not expect the largest spinnaker that can be built within these trial measurements to be the most succesful. Rather, I expect that the fastest spinnakers built to the trial measurements will have longer luffs than current spinnakers, and will be more efficient as a result (higher aspect ratio), and may or not be significantly larger in area. My sailmaker friends tell me that the current 505 class rules result in an inefficient spinnaker design if you go max on all dimensions, and I note that everyone today goes to maxium luff length, but stays away from maximums on some of the other measured dimensions, so in effect sailmakers are reducing the size/area of the kite today while retaining the maximum luff length, in order to make it higher aspect ratio, and to keep the area about right for our courses. The spinnaker area we choose to use while racing is not governed by the class rules (since no one is using a full sized spinnaker today) but is governed by what is fastest around the race course. Perhaps a longer luff spinnaker that works out to be roughly the same area as one of today's mediums will prove to be the fastest on our courses. We don't know until we try a few. The reason I support trialing a longer luff spinnaker is that I believe there is a good chance we can create a more efficient spinnaker, that makes the boat more exciting downwind (primarily on the runs), possibly in conjunction with broadening the reaches slightly from the very tight 70-degree-inside-angle-at-the-gybe-mark angle we currently use. What I hope for is a situation where we race -- say -- 10 degrees lower on the reaches, with the pole on the forestay and the boat feeling just about how it does now with our current spinnakers on our current reaches, but we are able to plane on the runs in lower wind strengths than we do today, all with roughly the same crew weight in the boat. I am not interested in making changes that significantly change the optimum crew weight in the boat, and that result in lighter teams leaving the class in significant numbers. We still want to be able to go out on very windy days, with our current crews, and race the boats with the spinnaker. I think we may be able to accomplish this with a longer luff spinnaker. We can at least try one and report back to the list with our experiences. Regards, Ali Meller VP International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association 7200, 8263, 8734 From: Malcolm Pearson Hi All, It seems one persons enquiry seeking advice on retrieving a large spinnker has sparked the philosophical debate once again regarding the whole issue of larger spinnakers. Just to repeat previously stated comments. The Interrnational Executive is acutely aware of the tradition and the success of the 505 class over the last 45 years and is not about to promote dramatic changes that will obsolete fleets. Times do change and technology has affected our society over the last 45 years to a greater extent that in all previous history of mankind. Look at 505's in 1955 and look at them today. What a difference the benefits of technology has had. (But the fundamentals are the same.) Aluminium masts, fibre glass construction, synthetic material sails, "space age" fittings compared to the '50's, synthetic rope, are all technological improvemnmets that have made a 505 lighter, faster and easy to sail. All things that have made a 505 more enjoyable to sail too. Probably the best feature of the 505 is the challenge it presents to sail well. To "sail well" is obviously different things to different people. It depends on the enjoyment level you are seeking. To be a good local competitor, to be a fun weekend sailor, or to be a "hot shot" international competitor. The 505 offers all things to all people in the high performance dinghy category. Experience and expertise has clearly demonstrated that the 505 spinnaker is not a particularly efficient shape and 4 or 5 years ago it was suggested that the class should do some experimentation with a view to improving this aspect of the boats performance. (This has all been explained before and I don't wish to re-hash it all ) The result of this had been the current "trial" period sanctioned by the class so that as many people as possible can try it and form an opinion on it before it gets put to the International AGM at Durban this year where it will be decided if in fact it even goes to an International ballot. Such is the process with our very protective, democratic class constitution. We are fortunate in our class to have so many high quality internationally recognised yachtsman who have been in the class for years and years. All pretty conservative types of guys who have the best interests of the class at heart. Now there's one aspect of all this that facinates me. When yachtsman of the calibre of Christer Bergstrom, Tom Bojland, Dave Porter (none of whom are young, brash, revelotionaries) all enthusiastically endorse the "trial spinnaker" surely an intelligent, reasonable person with an open mind would take notice. At 56 years of age, I'm obviously in the latter years of my 505 competition but I can tell you after sailing 505's for 40 years I've never had so much fun as downwind this last summer with the larger trail spinnaker. It simply brings the boat alive. It's a whole new experience. Being a higher aspect ratio it addreses some of the inefficencies of the current design. No longer do you plough into the back of the wave in front of you when running downwind in big sea on a heavy day, you simply charge straight over the top of it. But enough of that. The trail period is in place and the matter will be given propper and due consideration at the appropriate time. It disappoints me that some people seem hellbent on destroying what could well be the best innovation the class has had since its formation without thinking through what might be in the best interests of the class woldwide. The 505 has far more competition from other high performance classes than existed in the 50's so maybe we need to keep an eye on the market place to keep attracting young people into the class. Whose knows, maybe the larger spinnaker with it's greater speed and certainly greater tactical skill requirements downwind, may be one small way of catching the eye of the youngsters. I've always said I hate long emails. I'm sorry. Pip Pearson International 505 Class President P.S. Dave Eberhardt, If you think I'm having a crack at you - please don't be offended. From: Michael Quirk In support of some of ALi's comments. The proposal is to change the shape of the spinnaker not the size. After a whole season down under experimenting with the big spinnaker we have found that the optimum size is only marginally bigger than our old one. It is about the same amount of sail cloth and takes up about the same amount of space in the boat. In fact our so called "larger" spinnaker is actually smaller than that carried by one of the older boats in our fleet. Another interesting observation is that I did not see any correlation between which spinnaker people were carrying and the overall finishing positions at the end of the season or the age of the boat. I am absolutley convinced from a seasons experience racing with and without the new style kite that it makes absolutely no difference to the relative performance of each boat in the fleet. What it has done is make the boats a lot more fun for everyone. The boats that finish first or last all say how much fun it it is and how much easier the boats are to sail - even in 30knots. I weigh 60kg and my crew weighs just under 80kg. We do not find the boat any harder to sail on reaches and we can match teams with the smaller kites on the tightest reaches. We are however much quicker on the runs because we plane and trapeze all the way down where the boats with the old style kites rock and roll dead down wind. The extra fun of being able to trapeze down wind has to be experienced. All I can say to you folks up there is TRY IT - YOU WILL LIKE IT. If everyone who tries it likes it how can it possibly damage the fleet? Mike Quirk AUS 8280 From: David L. Stetson OK, I've reached a level of intensity that compels me to comment. I sailed a North Americans several years ago with a spinnaker that was maxed out in all dimensions. The boat went sideways. Although I am not a sailmaker, I am not entirely stupid. The leech of the spinnaker was visible beyond the leech of the main when viewed from the skipper's position. I suspect that that degree of leech return was a problem. I currently sail most of the time with one of Ethan Bixby's "chicken chutes." It is well short of max on both luff and girth, but it appears to be very fast in drifters and blasters and it holds its own in moderate conditions. My analysis says that a sail that is max on the luff (using current measurement rules) and narrow, maybe minimum on girth, higher aspect ratio, will have less leech return, will have a drive vector that is more directed toward the front of the boat, and therefore will be more efficient. Ali, others: has such a sail been tried and compared to the current crop of "big" spinnakers? From what you said, Ali, that is the style of sail that is being built now to the current rules. If better sails can be built with a rethinking of the kinds of sails we ask sailmakers to build, with the techniques we use to get to the leeward mark (trap-reaching rather than deep running), without any modification of the rules, I'm FOR IT! If a half-meter more of luff will help Ethan and Ian and Jay and others make better sails, let's do a careful, controlled, dispationate study of what can be done. That's the scientist in me. I hate to use a cliche, but I believe the 505 ain't broke. Dave Stetson From: Andy Williams Sorry, I've been watching this for a while and feel it's time to comment. Firstly, we really should rename this discussion "New Spinnaker" or "Different Spinnaker" to try and get some perspective here. Secondly, we should try and remember we are now in the year 2000. Times change, things move forward, as all you scientists out there start to understand the things you tamper with, improvements get made. That's why we currently sail a boat made from Plastic and not Trees. That's why the man with the little red flag no longer walks in front of our automobiles. Once upon a time we firmly believed our brains would leak out of our ears if we exceeded 20mph. Fortunately now we know better. The thing to get firmly in your mind here is that we are talking about a change in the spinnaker dimensions related to an improvement in efficiency. We already know the largest spinnaker allowed by class rules is one of the least efficient. In terms of current use, most people use a medium spinnaker as that gives the best compromise between sheer volume for the runs, and the ability to carry the kite on the reaches. I would not be at all surprised to find that the fastest design will be about the max we are currently allowed, but around 65-70% instead of the 85% we are forced into by the current rules. The only way we are going to know is by trying it, not by talking about it. I have been sailing 50's for just under 10 years now. I'm on my 4th boat. Each new one has been a little newer and a little faster. A bit more modern. However I must admit to being tempted by some of the new classes that have arrived, like the 49'er, the B14 and lately the RS800. They are all faster than us. They are all taking advantage of modern techniques to make the experience that bit more exciting. Sooner or later at the current rate of progress something will come along that I can't resist as long as I'm still young enough and fit enough if the 505 doesn't progress. If these things are tempting to me, they must be far more attractive to the younger generation. The danger of that is our ever aging fleet will eventually die out from natural selection unless we can attract the youngsters back. If we need to make changes to achieve this so be it. I'm afraid that whilst I agree it's nice to restore the classics, given a choice between a 60's Daimler or a modern, air conditioned, fuel efficient, comfortable family saloon I sigh nostalgically for the old and then buy the new. Andy Williams GBR 8694 (GBR8445, K7786, K7585) From: Paul Galvez As an International 14 sailor, this debate looks all too familiar. If we are only talking about a new kite design which may be somewhat larger, THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. It's not as if you are changing rigs or hull designs. If the sail will not fit the launcher, use a sock extension, it will probobly cost you $25-$40 or $10 if you get the lady to sew it. The 5o5 is a boat which sails beutifully, yet lacks the power downhill especially in lighter conditions. With the new Big Kite, if the crew is small, you can sail deeper and/or plane faster than the others. Almost no one will use a max size kite because in most cases they will not be as fast(drag)or even slower(can't reach high). This has already been tried and tested in my class. With an optimum geometry, and area, the boat would gain the horsepower you guys seem to be craving. In terms of what's good for the class growth, there will always be 2 types of dinghy sailors; those that race hard and travel, and those that just like to sail the boat and race in a casual atmosphere locally. The latter half should not be concerned if you're already sailing w/sails over ten years old. This is a completely different time warp where the new people start off and pay thier dues. Who do you think buts our old 14's? BTW, a Proctor D section should be plenty stiff to take the load. Three 14's/eleven years ago, I had that section on a mast-head assymetrical. Sure, it bent forward like a wet noodle but it never broke. You will not have nearly the load. Osolesence is one thing, but this is just a sail we're talking about so do it and don't mess with progress Paul Galvez International 14 USA 1123 From: Michael Quirk Just some last comments before I stop stiring things up. For what its worth, towards the end of our season down here we had about 10 boats racing with the experimental kites. They were attracting a lot of attention from other dinghy sailors. People who previously took little notice of 505's are watching with interest and asking about the boats. They look a lot more exciting as well as actually being more exciting. Also for the record and further to a comment that Pip made recently regarding the thoughts of our conservative heros, we have an icon who sails in our fleet. John Bagshaw is over 70 (his crew is getting there)and sailed 505's when they were first introduced to Australia. John was the second person in the fleet to get one of these sails. (I, on the other hand took some convincing.) The grin on John's face as his boat's bow lifts over the wave that his competitor with the standard sail is attempting to go under tells me how he feels about the sail. In my humble (and apparently un-informed) view there is absolutley no comparison between a 505 with the new spinaker dimensions and one without. I guarantee that anyone who gives one a go will realise how poorly a 505 performs down wind with the current spinaker dimensions. Dave Eberhardt is obviously concerned that if the association chooses to change the spinaker dimensions some boats will become dinasaurs. I do not think this is right but even if it is, I fear that by not making the change we risk all 505's becomming dinasaurs - not just a few. Dave, I realise you will think this selfish and I accept that. I actually do not care whether the new sails are voted in or not. I beleive we will use them here in Sydney anyway. I do not think any of us could contemplate going back to the old ones. Currently we have to for State and National titles but the sailing in these events is noticeably less fun. Anyway, apologies to everyone for stirring up a hornets nest, Mike Quirk AUS 8280 From: Steve Lieberman I've only used the bigger kite in light conditions, so I have yet to form a clear view of it yet. Because experimentation is the only way to learn both about the performance implications of a longer-luff kite and the potential complications of retrofitting all types of existing boats, I believe the classes current approach makes sense. "Trying before buying" seems inherently prudent - and conservative. I don't think that a longer length luff will cause any particularly difficulty for my mid-80's Waterat: in large part, this is because I use a "douse" block but not a "douse" cleat. Still, the only way I'll know for certain is to try one in my boat... One other item to consider: the attachment point on the mast for the spinnaker is relatively high. If one doesn't use a pole launcher, the curfrent height is fine for my regular crew (6'2"), a bit of stretch for me (5'10"), and too high for another crew (5'7"). However, accommodating a longer luff spinnaker by (at least in part) lowering the attachment point on the mast might make the boat sailable for a broader range of crews (especially if they don't want to go to the expense of adding a pole launcher). I agree with the comments that we should all remain open-minded during the trial period. As a suggestion, let's reduce as many potential objections or concerns as possible to testable propositions. Then, let's test the propositions to find out the facts, diseeminating the results widely. Then, let's make our decisions. Steve Lieberman, US 7876 From: Dave and Sheryl Eberhardt Barney Harris wrote: > ...the rantings of some mis informed, idealistic,
small thinking children. Good to know that "team SPOT" feels qualified to decide that the 505 class rules are flawed and should be changed to adapt to incompetent race committees and sailors who have no compasses and can't find the reaching mark. (His preface, copied above, seems prophetic.) When I started sailing in 1945, I was taught by my uncle (a Star sailor on Lake Michigan) that sailboats didn't go at the same speed on all courses and that some courses (such as broad reaches and dead runs) were slower than beam and close reaches. I believe that efforts to repeal that truism of sailing are misinformed and misguided. I was also taught that you sail in the conditions that are there and compete under the rules of the contest you enter (all sports, not just sailing.) Those principles were valid then and still are, and their applicability to the current discussion should be obvious. --Dave Eberhardt, USA 6570 (ex-861, 2514) P.S. - I do not expect to be alive and sailing in 20 or 30 years when the adoption of the BS (big spinnaker, better called the boondoggle spinnaker) is supposed to bear fruit. I submit that we are sailing now, and the class is competing for new sailors now, in boats available now; a change that destroys the stability of the rules and the utility of most existing spinnakers will do so now, not 20 or 30 years from now. Really, Barn, ain't that a bit too long a reach in desperation to defend the BS? From: Rob Napier There are two issues, only partly interlinked. One is whether or not we want longer luff spinnkers. There are arguments both ways. Nobody is railroading this - everyone (all boat-owning members of the association) will have a vote in the ballot. Nevertheless, we are encouraging people to try the experimental spinnaker so that they have experience of what they are voting on. But let's leave that for now. The second issue is whether there are any boats that would be unable to convert to use the proposed larger (6m) spinnaker. This issue has arisen before, and I responded, and I got a tirade of "don't know what you are talking about" from the Ballenger Boys. But despite the tirade, no real answer was given as to why it would not be possible to accommodate a 6m spinnaker in a Ballenger. Factor 1: The Ballenger chute is narrow, but can take a full-size 5m spinnaker. For all the reasons given, I believe that a 6m spinnaker of the same width as a 5m spinnaker will fit through the chute. It will be longer, but the bulk at any one section will be no greater. Actually, we will probably use narrower spinnakers, so it could be less. Factor 2: There is a bulkhead on the Ballenger that is too far forward (by 6 inches, I think we were told) to take the extra length of the 6m spinnaker. That is bad luck. But there appear to be simple ways of getting over that. The first, most obvious, is to cut a hole. (In fact, I would be surprised if there are not some people who haven't already cut holes for lightness). No one has explained why that can't be done. But if impossible, then why not simply take the spinnaker over the top of the bulkhead? On all the latest Rondars the spinnaker comes over all the bulkheads, no problem. Admittedly on the Rondar the spinnaker comes in through the bow tank higher up so it is more logical. But I cannot believe that one of these solutions would not be possible. A simple elastic return line can take the after part of the stowed spinnaker out of the way into the front of the cockpit or in front of the bulkhead, again as is common in modern boats. You can then get rid of the sock, which is a source of friction. It is an important issue, because if there are boats that genuinely cannot take the new spinnakers, that fact ought to be taken into consideration in issue number one. But I remain unconvinced. If I have missed something, perhaps someone would like to fax or email me a photo or engineering drawing explaining the problem and why neither of the above solutions would work. As an aside, I find it ironic that part of the complaint arises from the size of the chute. The class allowed spinnaker chutes in 1970. Are the Bellenger Boys saying that that was a mistake? Certainly retrofitting chutes was a difficult task, indeed a really horrid task, lying inside the bow tank fibreglassing in a chute. I speak from experience. This current change is a doddle by comparison. - Rob Napier From: Adam Linton It seems there are some people who are dredging up every excuse possible to hold the 505 class back in the 19th century. For the 505 class to remain viable we must move with the times and accept change to make the class more appealing to newcomers to the class and the sport. The New big spinaker is a great thing. It makes the boat faster, more fun, easier to sail downhill and easier to gybe. If have used one for the latter half of the season and had some of the best times racing 505 that i have ever had. Some people are saying that it will not fit into thier boat. my big kite with only one patch came to near the end of the centreboard case when stowed. There is no excess bundle of cloth as the width of the kites has not changed this controls how thick a spinaker is when dowsed, the length of the kite simply affects how far back in the boat the kite comes, which in actual fact is only about 50cm. No one in my fleet has a dowse cleat. I have never had a spinnaker fall out of the chute when I tidied up the sheets after a drop or just sailing along, and we sail in some pretty messed up and choppy water on sydney harbour. No one at middle harbour has done any damage to thier masts and we have used them in some pretty strong breezes. they will not advantage or disadvantage any particular crews any more than the current spinnaker does. At middle Harbour we have a with range of crews varying in age from late teens to John Bagshaw, who helped start the class in australiain the 1950's and is still sailing 505's today at more than 70 years old.(he loves the big kite too and was the second person in our fleet to get one.) and we also have one female crew(who also loves the big kite). if the change goes through like i hope it does then more and more people will be getting new kites and thier old ones can be passed down to other boats in the fleet, meaning within a season or two everyone will be able to have one. To sum up what i have just said, i think the big kite is a great thing, a great step forward that will make the class more attractive and fun to sail. It does not need any major modifications to the rig or hull to be fitted. If you haven't used one then do so before you come out and say what you think and vote on it. Adam Linton From: Marco Giraldi My experience is the following: 1. retrieving the large spi is not more difficult than retrieving the old one, if the technique used is good (thanks for the advice I got, it really helped) with double patch the whole spinnaker remains within the tube (no sock needed) on kyrwood 8097 2. the spinnaker I got is taller and flatter, therefore I noticed a great increase in performance in close reaches while on the dead run is not too hot (mind you it is also possible I got used to the incredible performance on the reaches) 3. such shape will enhance jibing contests (it is more similar to a jennaker in the use) 4. the jib/spinnaker interference was greatly reduced, higher aspect seems to have cleaner flow over the spinnaker, and there is more distance between spinnaker and jib, 5. main sail is sheeted in harder... faster speed? 6. if the spinnaker empties, well major adjustment of crew weight placement is fundamental. 7. because it is flatter it does not empty as often, more forgiving... 8. overall it seems as easy as the old one to carry. The above observations were taken in winds below 10knots I.e. in close haul the crew was sitting on the centreboard well, while the skipper on the windward side, when the spinnaker was hoisted we were both sitting on the windward side and in the gust the crew had to go out on the trapeze, the boat was planning almost the entire time (not a real fast plane, but the bow was up and clean stream on the stern)....I weight 75 kg my crew approximately the same. Thanks everybody for the advice on retrieving it what worked for me is: retrieving line on the outside, pole out till the last possible moment, sheeting in a bit more. Marco From: Jesse Falsone Ali Meller and I sailed his KISS Rondar with the 6m luff spinnaker in 16-18 knots of wind. Here are my observations: 1) The kite in question was Ali Meller's built by Ethan Bixby to an Australian North design. Its a maximum (6m luff) or near maximum size kite with the halyard raised. 2) Pole height was not affected, therefore visibility was about the same. 3) When sucked into the boat, the spinnaker came back to approx. 1 foot forward of the end of the CB trunk. This is a few inched further back than the standard spinnaker I think. 4) The spinnaker was very powerful, seemingly pulling us over the waves with less loss of speed. 5) Trimming the spinnaker required a little more effort in these conditions, as there was definitely more pressure on the sheet. It also took a little more trimming to keep the spinnaler from luffing, and much more ease to get it flying right again. 6) I would estimate that in these conditions, we were sailing about 5-10 degrees lower than we would have been with a standard chicken, but at the same speed. Heating up the 5-10 degrees to match a standard chute reach would've been difficult in these conditions, and speed would be about the same due to increased drag and heeling moment. 7) Douses obviously take another second or two because you have more spinnaker to pull in. 8) The top of the mast was somewhat straighter due to the load, but the mast never inverted. Its obvious to me that the larger spinnaker will require better crew work to handle, but offers an interesting new speed dimension on the reaches, and tactics on the runs. I think it will be a plus for most active 505 teams, but a negative for many club level sailors on the race course. I think this maximum size spinnaker may also pose structural problems for the mast in a big blow, although I'm not really qualified to say so definitively. My feeling is that this particular spinnaker may be a bit too big for the boat. Perhaps more narrow shoulders would decrease the power slightly while increasing the efficiency (higher aspect), making for a spinnaker that is both easy to handle but faster on all points of sail. In any case, I think everyone should reserve judgement until they have tried it. If you want your voice to be heard AND counted, sailors should show up to the Worlds in Durban and their respective national championships (Santa Cruz, CA for the NAs for all North America sailors). Respectfully submitted, Jesse Falsone Team SPOT (the front half) USA 505 8643 From: Simon Smith [RYA Email] As an ex 505 sailor currently thinking about moving back to two man boats after years of singlehanded sailing I have been following the big spinnaker debate with interest. There is clearly some concern by some of the class members that the introduction of the big spinnaker is going to lead to dire consequences for the class as a whole. 505's had a big impact on my formative sailing years I want the class to survive and prosper. Take the UK as an example market. With new boats coming out all the time the 505 is struggling to keep up. Where once you could have had 60 boats at an open they are struggling to get 30 and the Brits are no longer winning the world championships. Americans are buying up old boats and containering them across the Atlantic. This does not augur well for the class in the UK. The RS800 gives near 49er performance, big fleets and high quality racing, epoxy hull and carbon rig at ridiculous prices. How can you compete? Do you want to compete? Bottom line is performance and price... You can't put two trapezes and a fat head mainsail and asymmetric kite on 505 without killing the class completely but you can improve the performance substantially by putting a carbon mast and 6 meter spinnaker on it. It will still look like a 505, it will still sail like a 505, it will still be a 505.... But better and faster. There is a lot of, justifiable, fear on the dinosaur effect changes might have. Take the Finn class. Just a bit older than the 505 and with about 12,000 boats built. Of these 12,000 maybe 150 are sailed at championship/Olympic level with another 1000 sailed at club level (not unlike 505 figures i would suggest). A few years ago they allowed wing masts into the class allowing a quantum leap in performance. The top guys use carbon wing masts and the club sailors still use needlespar aluminum masts. Slowly but surely the club sailors are buying the wing masts, new and secondhand, and moving up a notch or two in performance. The wing mast has, absolutely, not damaged the class. Indeed it has brought the class into the 21st century and guaranteed that it will remain the Olympic singlehander probably into the 22nd century. My view is that the 6 meter luff kite will have a similar effect with the 505. It is still one of sailing’s big mysteries that one of the most technically advanced performance boats continues to use aluminum as the only mast material when even my humble phantom now uses carbon. cheeers and good sailing... simon From: Simon Smith [RYA Email] As someone who is contemplating moving back into two man boats after 20 years of doing it singlehanded the response from the 505 fleet can hardly be said to be encouraging. When i was a child i would watch the likes of Larry Marks walking on water at Weston SC. The 505 was then the very pinnacle of dinghy development, the Ferrari of sailing. I knew about carbon fibre and kevlar before any of my school friends, not because I was studying jet fighter technology but because I knew all about 1970s 505s. I have been sailing now for 35 years and the reason why I have sailed for so long without a break is that when I was in my early teens I crewed in 505s. The experience was so profound that I never wanted to do anything else. When I left school and went to uni there was no way I could sail 505s... 505s were rich men's boats... if you wanted to do it properly they were expensive. So now 20 or so years later I am considering getting a two man boat. What should I choose? Well the 505 is a pretty obvious choice but so is a RS800. So do I buy an expensive boat which has had a great history but handicapped with a 45 year old rig or a boat with less than a year's history but with a hull shape, rig and performance that would feel at home in the R&D labs at NASA? It is a sad sad fact that classes only survive if they attract new blood and in a competitive market place the 505 is struggling. In the 70's they were the boats that introduced carbon and kevlar to an awe-struck sailing community yet now the class seems somewhat introspective, preferring to dwell on a glorious past than prepare for the challenges that the new millennium presents. It really wouldn't take too much to bring the class back to its rightful place in the hierarchy of classes. The class's international committee would seem to recognise this. The introduction of the tall spinnaker and a carbon mast would bring it 99% of the way. OK it might not be cheap but then the class never was cheap... quality costs, but I would pay good money to have the ultimate single trapeze symmetrical spinnakered boat. However until that happens the RS800 at
75% 505 cost presents a compelling argument. From: Jean Baptiste
Dupont Dear Simon, I havent seen some response to your message below and I feel like giving it a try. You are obviously a well experienced british sailor and sure the RS800 is an attractive option in your country. As for me, in France, sailing this type of boat sure means that I will be sailing alone. There are very few assymetriques and I havent seen any RS800 so far. I am not too sure that the 5o5 was the very top of the dinghies even in its early days. I remember that the Flying Dutchman was faster and got selected for the Olympics. But interviewing some of the sailors who have been sailing the FD and 5o5 they all mentioned that the FD is faster but the 5o5 is a lot of fun since it is wonderfully balanced and remains easily manageable. And after all isn't it this later characteristic that makes the boat last and successfull attracting among the best sailors for many years. The boat is not too heavy, not too difficult, not slow, not too expensive, ... never the best at one particular things but represents the best compromise on all aspects of the dinghy. In addition, the class itself is wonderfull. Many top sailors, good racing, very great cooperation/school/learning curve... and great beer drinker. The boat has strict rules but flexible enough to allow any level of sailor to tinker and make new improvements and there are still new stuff coming (lately new rudder, centerboard, new spinnakers types(in the current rules)).... As for the RS800, my friends from Bough Beech Sailing Club who were racing 5o5 with me at club level a year ago moved to RS800 at the beginning of this year and reckoned that they spend most of their week end in the water rather than on the water since the balance of the boat is a trick. I wish you wont have to spend so long time into the water as they do to master the beast. Sure the class can opt for the carbon mast, the bigger kite, the assymetric and other improvements but first and foremost the boat is great as it is, and this opinion is commonly shared and not just by 5o5 sailors - and what would really betray the class is any dramatic changes which would result in altering the wonderfull present balance of the boat and its versatility. As for the price, you rightly point out that the RS800 is cheaper, and we would all wish the boat to be as cheap as those boats. But will an RS last 10 to 20 years as any 5o5 does today ? Not too sure that all in all this RS is a bargain on the long run. As a last point from this week end while we were racing the French national in lumpy sea state and windy conditions (25 to 35 knots) - the general comments from the top guys was that in such conditions any assymetric would be nose diving and capsized most of the time while our 5o5s were a blast to sail !!! So give it a try and see you in Abersoch where 70 5o5s are expected to race the European championship in mid August. Best regards Jean-Baptiste Dupont From: Adam
Linton There are not two different types of 505
as a lot of the messages on this list would have you believe. More about the Larger Spinnaker trials
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— Sv.505 F�rbundet —
Uppdaterad 2022-03-16