From: Mark Angliss [[email protected]]
Sent: den 18 oktober 2000 06:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: 505world State your peace
I have been in contact with North American section officers in regards to contraversial
issues from the new larger 'chute, to differentiating the class as
"Classic/Traditional" vs. "Super-boat/Techno". I am stepping up to the
challenge of trying to preserve the class, as a class in all categories of disagreement.
It appears the fleet is divided between the GORGEOUS all-wood vintage boats, to the
GREATEST POPULUS of pre-7000 number boats to the SUPER-BOATS of today. My work will be to
read, compile and pass on for consideration ALL input. The object of the exercise is to
find a way to perpetuate the "open" rules so that the class advances and
survives (as it has done) inspite of nearly 50 years of heritage yielding a
"mish-mosh" of special interest groups. There are now issues of "lost in
time" 505s caused by permissible (and highly encouraged) techno advances in the
class. "Open" rules are a birth-right fundamental to the 505 class to encourage
class advancement. However there is nothing in the rules that provides for the
"splash in the pan super-boat", to remain as a competitive geriatric. If a
class, by class rules is permitted to move forward in a manner that should
"honestly" consider changing it's handicap rating, it appears to me the new
MAJOR improvements should be reflected as class differentiation as well.
Consider this: Swap the rigs, spars, foils and sails from a 5000# 505 to an 8000# or even
a 7000# hull. I would say that is a fair race. However, placed in their rightfull places
there is no contest as to who will win.
.....Almost regardless of sailing skill! That is NOT an evenly balanced class. Such a
"swap" would be "even" in the tightly controlled Laser class.
We can turn the 505 class into a "seasonal throw-away" boat in light of class
advances, or find a way to preserve a fleet of nearly 50 years evolution, as a fleet of
PROUD 5-OHs. (I might add, the 505 is one of the most spectatular "all wood"
dinghy on the face of the planet! How many of
you have seen a pristine all-wood 505? I repeat, spectacular! Especially with Egyptian
cotton sails, manila sheets and Sitka spruce spars) ....Enough drooling, back to the
subject.
Old and new, perhaps in different sub-class "divisions" or handicap ratings.
What-ever. I'm not here to call the shots. I simply volunteered to be a human life form to
listen and compile input. I want to hear EVERYONE'S opinion. Write to me. cc the
505world-list of 505 sailors if you have a firm opinion that you want noted to the world.
State your bottom-line opinion on how the 505 is going to be a REPEAT fore-runner of open
class rules for the next 50 years. I'm taking notes and all will be noted for presentation
to the North American officers you have elected. I extend this opinion/input to the
world-wide fleet. As this is an International fleet, all should be heard. Some may need to
take up this challenge in their own country. I'll share my data with others in fleets
around the world upon inquiry.
OK. I started it, State your opinions world-wide 505s!
...... Mark #USA3827
From: Peter Epstein [[email protected]]
Sent: den 18 oktober 2000 15:19
To: Mark Angliss
Cc: 5o5 mailing list
Subject: Re: 505world State your peace
Mark,
Very interesting proposal and project that you have undertaken. I admire your chutzpah! It
will be quite an arduous task and I may suggest that you could design a survey for the
class membership that would collect specific data as well as allowing for subjective
opinion input.
If you did this, your collection and reporting of data to the membership would have a
reference point; i.e., each question from the questionnaire would be able to be reported
and the reader would be able to have a reference point for the data reported once the
survey is complete.
From a research perspective, gathering all data as qualitative opinion reported by the
membership would pose a tremendous challenge in classification and reporting. And, in the
end, may not provide the class membership with solid trend conclusions or recommendations.
On a more personal note, there could be room for regatta scoring techniques that would
consider the boat's vintage. The question of modification remains. Since masts break and
equipment manufacturers change; how can you guarantee that a 2000# hull will remain rigged
as it was when it left the builder? Do you base the classification schema on hull alone?
And since the class rules permit development it may be difficult and add a layer of
complexity to scoring or regattas that could prove to be unwieldy.
Don't get me wrong. I am just submitting questions to be considered. I have made
modifications to my 7500 series Parker and I have come up with more as a result of damage
or wear and tear on the boat.
I cannot afford a SuperBoat, I love the boat to sail; I would love to win big regattas but
I probably will need a more current hull shape and significantly more on-the-water time
before that occurs. For now I am extremely happy with the work on MY boat, MY rigging
modifications, and I just want to sail.
Regards,
Peter Epstein
CAN 7570
(more boat restorer than sailor for the past couple of years but all that is about to
change.....)
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 18 oktober 2000 16:43
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world State your peace
In a message dated 10/18/2000 1:06:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
> However there is nothing in the rules that provides for the
"splash in the pan super-boat", to remain as a competitive geriatric. If a
class, by class rules is permitted to move forward in a manner that should
"honestly" consider changing it's handicap rating, it appears to me the new
MAJOR improvements should be reflected as class differentiation as well.
>
There is nothing in the class rules
that PRECLUDES your boat being a "competitive geriatric", either!
To a large extent this depends on how your 505 was built. Many 505s have amazing
competitive lifespans, provided they were well built out of high quality materials. No
other high performance dinghy class that I have heard of has 20+ year old boats that can
win races at the Worlds. 505s are not "splash in the pan super-boats"; My 7200
is 20 years old. You could take the first Lindsay-hulled Lindsay, 6910, built in 1979 I
think, to the worlds and the boat would be competitive. I believe many current Classic
505s could be made considerably more competitive. I would like to see more Classic owners
doing this (and showing up at regattas I go to).
505s 8 and 21 (all wood Fairey Marines) were on display at the 1999 Worlds in Quiberon. 8
launched and sailed around one day while the fleet was launching for the race. In
discussions with Pip Pearson, we suspected that if we had taken one of those boats, stuck
current foils, mast and sails in it, added a little structural reinforcement and re-rigged
it with current controls systems, we could have raced the boat at the 1999 worlds (which
was a lighter air event - I believe the differences between Classics and superboats are
minimized in light air and flat water). Owners of these Classics choose -- quite rightly
-- to keep them more or less as original, with wooden masts,
cotton sails and snubbing winches, but they COULD be upgraded. Many older 505s should --
in my opinion -- be upgraded with better control systems.
The non "superboats" built before (and for some time after) the advent of the
"superboats" can still be made much better than they currently are by upgrading
foils and control systems, and adding some stiffening to the boat to handle rig tension.
From what I see of these boats (I'm thinking of the
4xxx and 5xxx Parkers and Rondars that I see), I believe they are held back much more by
outdated control systems, poor foils, poor tuning, and frequently very old sails, than
they are by panel stiffness in the older, not fully cored, polyester hulls. The
Parker-hulled Lindsays have the same hull as a 5xxx Parker, but have better control
systems, better foils, can be tuned properly and some have raced with newer sails. Not
surprisingly they are much more competitive than Classic 505s.
This is not the I14 class, where development and major rule changes obsolete generations
of boats overnight. There has never been a rule change in the 505 class that made a
significant number of existing boats obsolete at one time. Probably the most significant
change was allowing boats to be built with straight diagonal bulkheads meeting behind the
mast. That allowed the boats to carry more rig tension, and gave them longer competitive
lifespans.
That change did not obsolete boats overnight, it simply meant the boats built to the new
scheme lasted longer and boats prior to this change were at a disadvantage as they aged.
> Such a "swap" would be "even" in the
tightly controlled Laser class.
I disagree. I also race Lasers. Compared to 505s they are very poorly built, and have
short competitive lifespans. The 1973 Laser I frostbite is a joke compared to a new Laser.
Oh, and I had to replace all control lines, none of them except the traveler are rigged
the way they were in 1973, buy a new rudder (old one warped), new carbon fiber tiller and
extension, have daggerboard refinished, mast step repaired, plastic cleats replaced, buy
vang swivel and quite a bit more. All the wooden reinforcements in the boat are rotting.
The only reason this Laser is still being sailed and is not living in the municipal dump,
is that it sat unused at a cottage for over ten years, and I chose to spend more time and
money than was practical, on putting it back on the race course. I would have been better
off doing what to Laser racers do, which is sell the turkey after 2 or 3 years, and buying
a new one.
> We can turn the 505 class into a "seasonal
throw-away" boat in light of class advances,
I strongly disagree with this statement. The 505 IS NOT NOW, AND WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY
NEVER BE A "SEASONAL THROW-AWAY" BOAT. It may have been for a short time when
the class was new, and construction materials and techniques led to boats with short
competitive lifespans. The 505 is the antithesis of a "seasonal throw-away".
Existing boats are retrofitted to take advantage of new developments, if the owner chooses
to do so. Actually, the competitive lifespan of a 505 has been going UP for years; take a
look at world championship results and look at how old some of the top boats are at recent
worlds, and contrast that with results from worlds in the '70s.
> or find a way to preserve a fleet of nearly 50 years evolution,
as a fleet of PROUD 5-OHs. ...
> Old and new, perhaps in different sub-class "divisions" or handicap
ratings.
We have pushed for a "Classic" division for boats older than 6500 (excluding
Parker-hulled Lindsays), have encouraged owners to show up and race, offered prizes, etc.
In all the years we have done this, I think we have had a TOTAL of 2 or 3 pre 6500 505s
show up for an event in the Mid-Atlantic, and one was scuttled by the owner at the event!
I raced a Classic with its owner at one (light air) event, and beat superboats in every
race. We do have a few fleets in the US and Canada that are primarily Classics. I think
this is great. However, I also think that members of these fleets -- on average -- race at
major 505 events away from their clubs much less than do owners of "Decent
Racing Boats" or "Superboats". What the 505 class needs the most is
PARTICIPATION.
We will continue to support a Classic division, because we believe it important to
encourage owners of Classic 505s to participate. I believe that Classics are still 505s,
should race the same courses, start on the same line, but can be scored separately (in
addition to overall scoring) at
events. We could also come up with a similar schemes to encourage junior, senior,
inexperienced, etc. sailors, by scoring them overall and in junior, senior, inexperienced,
etc. categories. We actually do some of this, in some events, already.
We can also hold special events, targeting very specific groups. For example, both
California and the Mid-Atlantic regions held "Coed" Championships this year. At
least one of the two people racing the boat had to be female.
I don't see how we could pick a handicap number relative to a current 505. Classic 505s
are far from equal, so no one number could be used for all Classics. Each boat would have
to be evaluated, and a handicap number assigned. Having given up racing keelboats due in
large part to the endless whining in the bar about handicaps (and also because they are
simply not as much fun to race as a 505 is to sail), I would not want any part of
"handicapping" 505s. There may be an argument for "handicapping"
sailors.
Our fleet used to have a "most improved" prize that was sort of a start in this
direction.
> State your bottom-line opinion on how the 505 is going to be a
REPEAT fore-runner of open class rules for the next 50 years.
What I think:
The way the 505 class is going to continue to be the premier two person high performance
racing dinghy worldwide, is by remaining on the forefront of development within the
current rules, and -- if necessary -- by judicious alterations to those rules in a manner
that DOES NOT immediately obsolete large numbers of existing boats.
The key is not just keeping everyone currently in the class happy, but also bringing in
enough new competitors to replace those lost through attrition (none of us live forever,
none of us race 505s forever!).
There is no question that significant advances in construction materials and technology,
in spar and sail technology, and in tuning, allow the 505 to be much longer lasting,
potentially lighter, much easier to sail and much easier to adjust to the conditions, than
it was in 1955.
If we were to reduce the all up weight of the boat from 127.4 kg (280 pounds) to say 110
kg (242 pounds), we would find that many recently built boats could shed enough weight to
be close or on minimum weight, but that no 505s more than about five years of age could do
so. In some countries a strong majority of 505s racing are less than seven years old,
while in others the
vast majority of the fleet is older than seven years old. But the 505 would be faster,
would plane earlier, and would be lighter than many of the new high performance asymmetric
spinnaker boats being introduced -- it appears -- almost daily. This may make it more
attractive to some newcomers
On the other hand, owners of most or all existing 505s can experiment with higher aspect
ratio foils (which are completely within the current rules), can upgrade control systems,
buy hi-tech sails, and we could consider changes in the class rules that allow
improvements to the boat that can be retrofitted to existing 505s.
Changes that I expect will be to the advantage of the 505 class at some point include:
Removing the "temporary ban" on materials other than aluminum or wood in spars.
The class instituted a temporary ban on non aluminum-or-wood materials in 1982 or '83.
This was designed to keep out the carbon fiber masts that were developed and used in the
1979 to 1982 timeframe, due to their poor availability in all 505 countries and their high
cost.
At a time when most new high performance boats are fitted with carbon fiber masts, where
availability should not be any worse than that of the Proctor D (which is extruded only in
England, and shipped everywhere else in the world), and when the cost should soon be LESS
THAN an aluminum mast, I believe the class should seriously consider returning to the
pre-1983 rule -- or similar -- such that development in masts can continue. From what I
saw at the 1981 Worlds, and read about at the 1979 and 1982 worlds, the carbon fiber masts
were better (longer lasting) than the aluminum ones, but not so much of an advantage that
they make all aluminum-mast-equipped 505s obsolete.
The teams that did well with carbon masts would have done equally well with aluminum
masts, as was proven by several top teams in 1982. I believe it would be wrong to force
members to purchase more-expensive not-as-long-lived aluminum masts once we have
established that carbon fiber masts are as widely available as the Proctor D, and
available for similar or less cost. Please
note that if members are particularly concerned about moment of inertia advantages of
lighter carbon masts, there are ways to address the issue.
Also please note that not all carbon fiber masts that were developed were significantly
lighter than a Proctor D.
I also believe that the class should consider a more efficient (higher aspect ratio)
spinnaker shape. The original spinnaker dimensions drawn up by John Westell are very low
aspect ratio (lower aspect ratio than many other spinnaker boats) and result in a
relatively inefficient shape; so inefficient that no modern racing 505s use the full width
and area that the rules allow.
Again, I believe a change that can be retrofitted to all existing 505s is very different
from one that cannot.
If the class were to adopt a rule change allowing higher aspect ratio spinnakers, existing
boats could either continue to use their existing spinnakers, or could add a longer luff,
higher aspect ratio spinnaker. If a typical "Classic" with a non high aspect
ratio spinnaker were racing a new 505 equipped with a higher aspect ratio spinnaker, the
performance differences due to the spinnaker would be rather less than those due to the
old foils, old control systems and old sails that many Classics have.
If we as a class decide that such a change will make 505s more fun to sail and will bring
in more members than we lose, then it is to our advantage to do so.
I look forward to discussion of the longer luff spinnaker at the class Annual Meeting; I
would like to hear of trials by people who have not already reported their experiences to
the 505world-list.
We cannot stand still and we should not change too quickly.
At some point the J24 class INCREASED their all up weight, so as to keep the older boats
that were gaining weight (the 505 class of course, had long known that polyester boats
tend to gain weight over time), competitive. The J24 is a stricter one design than the
505, and has existed for a much shorter time. It is -- in my opinion -- vulnerable to
newer designs because it minimizes changes to take advantage of new developments. Every
time there is a technology development, they have to debate the merits of adopting it, and
when (example Mylar sails, carbon fiber spinnaker poles, even changes in control systems).
Sounds like a pain to me. At some point soon, there will be boats so much better than the
J24, costing the same or less, that the J24s greatest strength -- its numbers -- will be
overcome and it will wane in favor of newer boats. This is currently happening to the
Snipe class, which though still very strong worldwide, has difficulty bringing in new
young sailors. These sailors are -- at least in the USA -- are joining the Vanguard 15, JY
15 and even (gasp) the J22 class instead of the Snipe. If we stand still, or move too
slowly, we risk the same outcome.
On the other hand, I believe that the original Fireball did not have a trapeze, and had
smaller sails. At some point the Fireball class altered their rules, improved the boat,
and the class prospered, becoming perhaps the strongest rival the 505 class has a
worldwide two person spinnaker trapeze dinghy. Much more recently the FD class adopted a
longer luff spinnaker, which was retrofitted to most currently racing FDs. While the FD is
not strong in North America at this time, it has remained quite strong around the world,
despite losing its Olympic status and adopting the longer luff spinnaker. It is even
attracting a different sailor that was not active in the FD when it was Olympic.
So some classes have very done well out of change.
What I want to see is more Classic 505s on the race course. The Classics are an
inexpensive way for people to get into racing 505s. There are lots of them around (though
we can never find them!) We need more of them showing up at regattas.
To prosper as a class going forward we have to continue attracting newcomers at a rate
that meets or exceeds the rate at which people leave the 505 class. Getting older 505s
back out racing works for awhile, but there are a finite number of them around, and they
don't last forever (neither do their owners).
We need more newcomers, more younger sailors, we need to restart 505 activity on countries
where it has died off, we need to start 505 activity in countries where there isn't any
currently. We need to continue to be a popular choice for people looking for a high
performance two person dinghy.
We have to remain an exciting boat, we have to continue to provide a high standard of
racing, with large turnouts at major events. We need to run fun events that people want to
go to. We have to continue our long tradition of being an open friendly class which
fosters newcomers getting better.
Ali Meller
505s 7200, 8263, 8734 (ex 6615, 6987, 7772)
P.S. One final comment. Every paid up class member gets one and only one vote on these
issues. All votes are equal, and one person's opinion and vote count for as much as
anothers. Next time a postal ballot comes to you, review it carefully and VOTE!
From: Mark Angliss [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 19 oktober 2000 07:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: 505world State-your-peace clarification
Everyone,
I have received many letters from around the world in response to my call for opinions.
Most have arrived without this message board being copied.
(reply to author versus reply to all) I have answered all respondants, however have not
posted my reply commentary "to the world". It is my interest to collect opinions
on the issues I have raised, not to turn this message board into a "debate
line". I highly encourage all of you to copy this message board if you have an
opinion you would like to express to others as well as answer the survey. However, I will
not be publishing my response to you on this message board. If you have received a
response from me you feel you would like to share with this message board, feel free to
post it.
A suggestion was made to publish a survey form. I haven't had time to do that replying to
the wave of e-mails I invited. Simplisticly:
1- Should the Class be officially divided between "Classic" and Super-boats?
2- Should the Class adopt the larger Spinnaker? If so, should the whole class adopt the
larger chute or limit it to the "super-boats"?
3- Should the class assign different handicap ratings to differentiate Super-boats from
Classics?
4- Is there no significant difference between 505s to even talk about any of this?
5- What are your ideas to perpetuate the class over the next 50 years?
Speak up 505 sailors! State your peace!
...... Mark USA3827
From: Evert Meyer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 23 oktober 2000 20:18
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world State your peace
Mark, Peter, Ali, Dave et. al.,
Some of the suggestions over the last few days certainly make a lot of sense, but I fear
we are getting bogged down by some cyclical thinking again. It may not be everybody's
point of view, but I think the "superboat/classic" clasification system should
be studied a little further.
Here is why:
Chris and I got into the class just over a year ago, admittedly with some decent
experience in other classes. Since neither of us has a garage, we both had demanding jobs
and "other" commitments that would make it hard enough just to get the sailing
part done, we decided to take the plunge and buy one of the best 2nd hand boats on the
market, which we thought would get us on the water and up to speed in minimal time. Turns
out it was not that simple. Although our boat (Rondar 8593) was pretty fast out of the
box, it had a very European set-up and sails, non-gybing centerboard and some other
"quirks". To benefit from the Howie and Mike led "sail by numbers
program" here on the West Coast, we started to gradually "Americanize" the
Rondar.
Although we are very happy with our progress, and have probably learnt more in the last
year than we did in the preceding 10, we are starting to reach the the point where we have
paid nearly as much for new sails, high-aspect foils, lines, systems, fittings etc. than
we did for the boat in the first case.
Looking around us at the PCC's and NA's, it was clear that we were not unique in our
approach and investment. Just about everybody was either sailing a Waterat, Hamlin or a
newer Rondar, and there seemed to be more Kevlar than Dacron around! If I remember
correctly, Dan Merino and Bill Jenkins won the "classic" award in their Lindsay.
Looking at the competitors list I see one only one older Rondar. Other than that, there is
a 8XXX-series Parker and a couple of Kyrwoods, which can hardly be considered
"classics". Some might point to the older Hamlins and argue that it is still
possible to do a competitive campaign on a shoe-string budget, but I don't agree. There is
a fairly old Hamlin on the market right now for $7,000, and I think it would still require
a ne set of foils ($2,000) to be really competitive. This is clearly not a sport for
anybody on a tight budget! At least not here on the West Coast.
The simple reality is that it already costs a lot just to stay in the middle of the pack
in this ultra-competitive class. It therefore makes no sense to hold further class
development back to accommodate boats that don't travel to major regattas, and have no
chance of finishing within a leg of the superstars in the class anyway. Rather, lets
redefine what constitutes a classic 505. Maybe the criteria should be more than just
simply age, but things like standard spinnakers, aluminum masts, standard CB, hulls
without high-tech materials etc.
For the rest of us, lets look at ways that allow the 505 to keep on developing in ways
that make the boat even more fun to sail. I agree with those that argue that incremental
changes that add a lot of cost for no absolute increase in fun, merely for a competitive
benefit only results in a "arms race". If Carbon fibre masts last longer (i.e.
are more cost effective in the long run), are lighter and perform better, lets re-allow
them (Here is an example of a rule made later to ban a development that was previously
legal). If a twin trapeze allows a greater variation in crew weights (maybe you can have a
shot at winning sailing with the "significant other"), why not. If longer luff
spinnakers are more fun and contribute towards maintaining a modern appearance and appeal,
lets go for it.
W. Evert Meyer, Ph.D.
Senior Associate
L E I G H F I S H E R A S S O C I A T E S
Consultants to Airport Management
tel: (650)571 2364
fax: (650)571 5220
http://www.leighfisher.com
[email protected]
From: Dave and Sheryl
Eberhardt [email protected]]
Sent: den 23 oktober 2000 21:39
To: Mark Angliss; [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world State-your-peace clarification
Mark Angliss wrote:
> 1- Should the Class be officially divided between "Classic" and
Super-boats?
> 2- Should the Class adopt the larger Spinnaker? If so, should the whole class adopt
the larger chute or limit it to the "super-boats"?
> 3- Should the class assign different handicap ratings to differentiate Super-boats
from Classics?
> 4- Is there no significant difference between 505s to even talk about any of this?
> 5- What are your ideas to perpetuate the class over the next 50 years?
Dear Mark: I'm not sure whether you mean "piece" as Rob implies, or actually are
punning deliberately since peace is what we all should want (and many need to hold.) In
any case, it's "respondents" and "simplistically," though I suspect
you mean simply "simply" without the pejorative sense implied by
"simplistically." (Forgive me; mother an English teacher, spelling/grammar
obsessions implanted early.)
My votes on the above:
1. No, though regatta organizers should be encouraged to provide added scoring and
trophies (but not separate starts) for Classics. Also, I favor redefining a
"Classic" as any boat under #7000 with neither a fully-cored hull nor carbon
fiber, Kevlar or epoxy as a major part of the hull layup. That specification could be
codified. A few current DURB's ("Decent Used Racing Boats") might thus
become Classics, but recent developments have made many of them noncompetitive with the
current superboats anyway.
2. ABSOLUTELY NOT! If this absurd boondoggle does pass, it should of course be allowed on
all boats--though either way it would tend to devalue Classics further. Most Classic
owners cannot afford to buy immediately a new, expensive sail the design of which is still
under development, and many Classics would have severe problems fitting the larger sail
into the hull. Of my three Classics from three different builders, for example, two do
have such problems (including #6570, on which I've tried both an improvised BS and Ali's
own sail) and the third (#463) is a 1957 non-launcher woodie for which the issue is moot.
Similar figures apply to the remaining five Classics in our fleet, though perhaps to only
one of the five nonclassics and superboats.
3. NO. A 505 is a 505. In fact, the class should act in ways which will tend to eliminate
the growing disadvantages Classic sailors must face; that also would tend to increase
Classic participation and give Classic sailors an incentive to upgrade their boats.
Examples are firmly rejecting the BS sail, carbon-fiber masts or a weight reduction, and
also providing or mandating that some major regattas be sailed in moderate or even light
air instead of restricting them to boatbreaking conditions which favor superboats most
strongly.
4. Sure, there's a difference, but it's strongest in heavy air and rough seas. In light
air and smoother water (not drifters and flat bays; I'm talking about winds under 15-18
and seas under 3-5 feet) a well-sailed Classic can compete with a superboat. (That
assumes, of course, that the Classic has equal foils, control systems and sails, and is
sailed by persons of equal skill.) More such regattas should be held and encouraged, and
regionals and NA's NOT restricted only to areas with "survival" conditions. (We
seem to be moving strongly in the latter selfish, elitist direction.)
5. See the above and also my E-mails, especially the most recent one to Ali (if he agrees
to let me copy it to the Web; I sent it to him first privately to see if it would anger
him unduly, since I consider him a valued friend despite our difference of opinion on what
I believe are frivolous changes to the class rules.)
--Dave E., USA 6570 etc.
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 14:41
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world State Your...
>Remember, we race against other 505's, not other classes.
Dave-
The above seems to be the banner that you want to display in your message.
But when I meet 49er sailors who would rather sail 49er's than a 505 because "its too
confusing", we're racing against other classes. When I travel to Bermuda and speak
with a local sailor who isn't very excited about the 505's moving there because,
"Laser 5000's or RS 800's look like more fun and are about the same price",
we're racing against other classes. When I look around my local fleet and realize that I
am, at 25, the youngest boat owner by at least 10 years, we're racing against other
classes.
You make a good point about not changing too much or too fast by evoking the memory of the
I-14. But why not go talk to sailors from the Comet, Tempest, Mercury, J/30, Lark,
Bucaneer, Rhodes 19, 6 meter, Mobjack, or Fireball about what happened to their
classes...if you can find any of them.
I like sailing 505's. I'd like to do it in the future. But if I can't entice members of my
generation to sail it, then I won't have anyone to sail against. We have to keep the boat
exciting to those potential customers and keep them coming back while keeping our current
ACTIVE members. Not to be harsh, but if a $500 sail, or $800 mast would price someone out
of this boat, then they are in the wrong boat. And that's from someone with one of the
lower incomes in the class.
Dustin
8735
From: Aaron Ross [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 03:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: 505world 505 World State your mind
For classics vs. superboats, I think you need to examine your goals, as well as your local
fleet. If you want to travel all over the country and do well, a classic is probably not
the best choice. But, if you don't want to travel much, examine your local fleet. If the
fleet is only 10% superboats, there is not much reason to buy a brand new waterat or
rondar. But if your fleet is highly competitive with superboats, and you choose to race a
classic, you should not try to find ways to handicap your boat, or slow down others.
I think the idea should be to race in a strong local one-design fleet that fits UNDER your
budget. That way additional expenditures to remain competitve won't be ignored in favor
making your Suburban payments.
In our case, my crew and I decided we wanted to race a high performance dinghy in San
Francisco. We had no previous favortism to one class over another. I weigh 140#, and my
crew weighs 220#. The local 505 fleet is strong, so it was the only choice for us. The
next realization was that a classic just wouldn't cut-it here. So we bought a decent boat
(ballenger 7155), and raced it for a year and a half. We were hooked, so we upgraded to
#7156, a kevlar hamlin. The reason was to eliminate the variables. I'm not even close to
good enough to figure out how to get non-standard boat up to speed. If you want to do
well, don't start by giving yourself a disadvantage. I think that in the right hands (not
mine), #7156 could be a top contender (look at Danny Thompson and Andy Zinn in hamlin
#7201, a sistership to mine). They are great sailors, and they spend time on the water
PRACTICING.
As to the gripe about holding major regattas in "big-air venues," how many teams
would spend their summer vacation and hard earned money to travel to a light-air venue
like Colorado?
I have to agree with Chris Hanke about light air venues. There is just not as much
motivation to drive seven to 15 hours to a notoriously light-air venue. Even thought the
505 fleet is great, hanging out at the dock watching glassy water for 2 days, then driving
home, is no fun. It's always a gamble when traveling, but it's easier to motivate and get
more boats when the area is known for having wind.
We had 45 boats at this year's North Americans in Santa Cruz. Coincidence? I think not.
How many showed up last year in Texas?
Aaron Ross
USA 7156, ex 7155
From: Mark Angliss [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 07:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: 505world Great Input!
505 Sailors World Wide,
I have received a wonderful reply from around the world in response to my
"survey". Most have chosen to write directly to me with opinions and answers.
Many have written their explanations for opinions submitted. I believe I have answered
everyone either by acknowledgment for receipt or my reply for debated issues or questions
for e-mails sent to me as of 10/21/2000.
To date, I have received 94 replies ranging from a few active/renowned 505 sailors and a
very large number of those that mailed me directly that prefer to quietly "State
their Peace" without inviting bulletin board commentary. Curiously, an interesting
number of replies have come from 505 sailors that are not active in fleets. (Hint. They
are listening!) Your "privacy" is respected, nothing is published to the
"world" with your identity associated unless you do so yourself. I'm simply
collecting "numbers" with the "twist" of my personal response for
questions or commentary. I have no intention of turning this board into a debate center.
I regret publishing my #3827 number
as it appeared to many that I was "whining" being a "classic" owner.
NOT SO! (explanation to follow, stay tuned for a future date)
Clarification: Many have inquired as to the differentiation of "Classic" versus
"Super-boat". I am using the terms that are explained on the International
web-site. 7000 # up and pre-7000 Lindsey "customs" are super boats. The
remaining 6900+ once registered boats are "classics" regardless of all-wood or
not. On a personal note, An "event" for "show" 505s would be great.
Primo "Heritage" ,"Classic" and "Super-boat" . Keep your
boat maintained! Preserve the fleet! Get a better sale price! (off my soap box) My
differentiation of the "Heritage" or "Vintage" boats is our all-wood
"firsts". The 505 has to be one of the most sexiest and gracious hull designs to
be wrappred around a cold-molded form with carefully placed strips of vernier. Even the
magnificent FD's, Thistles, Albacores and Jolly boats cannot compete with the
"reverse curves" of the 505. (OK Mark, shut up and get off the soap box!)
I will be publishing a compilation of the standings mid-week. If you have an opinion on
the issues, get it to me soon. Yes I know, "Peace" versus "Piece" That
was an intentional "play-on-words" given the heated issues of debate. Also, I
have heard from many casting their opinions as to reducing the minimum weight. Feel free
to submit your commentary on this issue as well as the others.
I'm adding Tanzania to the "only 505 owner in the country" list in addition to
the bulletin posted a few weeks ago for Norway.
I want to extend to everyone a submittal that I view as one of the best words-of-wisdom I
have received for consideration. "What ever you do, keep it simple and fun". On
that note, give some thought to my # 5 question for ideas for perpetuating the class for
the next 50 years. It's your boat, your class. ~~~~.....-/) ..~~~~
........ Mark
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 17:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: 505world Are we talking participation or boat performance?
I apologize up front for this note. I, like most of you, am tired of the lengthy
discussion that seems to be getting no where. However, I feel I must correct a
misperception about the '99 NA Championships continued by a number of people who were not
there.
Aaron Ross wrote:
... It's always a gamble when traveling, but it's easier to motivate and get more boats
when the area is known for having wind. We had 45 boats at this year's North Americans in
Santa Cruz. Coincidence? I think not. How many showed up last year in Texas?
Truth is that the '99 NA's were equivalent, if not better, that the '00 NA's for sailing
conditions. 18-20 Knots of breeze, flat water (OK 2-3' chop), 80F water temp, 90+F days, a
YC that was enthusiastic to host the event, .... The turnout was significantly different
because of two major reasons. Texas: No local fleet that could guarantee 10-15 boat
turnout on their own, and poor national turnout at an event that was heavily encouraged
for the multiple years prior; Santa Cruz: Multiple 'local' fleets to support the event (of
the 45 boat turnout how many drove <8 hours?), strong support from the national fleet
(at least one container from the east coast, but how many people drove >12 hours?).
Both events were held during the school year and were closely coupled to Worlds. But
because SC had 45 boats it was perceived successful, Corpus Christi was not. We new Corpus
was a gamble, unfortunately it did not pay off and will probably hamper NA's returning to
the central US for a long time.
I contend that if you want to have events that turns out more that 20 boats, you'd better
do it in a area that HAS 20 boats, or put it in a location that will guarantee good
sailing conditions AND is organized by someone with enough clout to get the boats there.
In '99, we (I) failed the second part. In '00, the class fulfilled both parts.
In my opinion, the NA Class Assn better decide what target it wants to hit in
participation and this will dictate where we go with boat performance. We all know what it
takes to win a NA or Worlds, Mike and Howie have shown us well; money, sweat, and most
important time in the boat. If individually we are not willing to put that much effort
into our own program, does it matter if you finish 10th or 50th? You are sailing to have a
good time, you are unlikely to finish in the top 5. History has shown us that the top
performers (and spenders) will travel to the big events, the middle to bottom of the pack
will sail local and not travel. Yacht racing is like auto racing ... to go faster that the
rest requires lots of money. YOU DECIDE what it is you want to do. SCCA, NASCAR, CART,
Formula 1, it's the same thing in sailing. There will always be someone that will spend
more money than you, YOU DECIDE at what level you want to compete.
If the Class wants to have 50 boat turnouts, we'd better hold events in SC, SF, Hyannis,
places that already have 20+ boats that will attend. AND we'd better leave the boat alone.
If the Class wants to attract the top sailors and keep the reputation for the level of
competition we have enjoyed in the past, we need to innovate, stay competitive. These two
goals have not been exclusive in the past, but with the current state of sailing (at least
in the US) they are.
My $0.02.
Scott Mackay
Austin, TX
US7606 (waiting to hear about the BS results)
From: [email protected]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 18:24
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: 505world State-your-peace clarification
In a message
dated 10/18/00 10:35:44 PM PDT, [email protected] writes:
> 1- Should the Class be officially divided between "Classic" and
Super-boats?
> 2- Should the Class adopt the larger Spinnaker? If so, should the whole class adopt
the larger chute or limit it to the "super-boats"?
> 3- Should the class assign different handicap ratings to differentiate Super-boats
from Classics?
> 4- Is there no significant difference between 505s to even talk about any of this?
> 5- What are your ideas to perpetuate the class over the next 50 years?
No. I think the classic vs superboat division should be left up to the individual fleets
and be based upon the guidelines given on the website. In San Diego where our fleet is a
mix of classics/decent used racing boats/superboats we routinely divide up the fleet
between classics and regular for ocean venues. It's one start and classic results are
based upon the overall results which encourages this division to be competitive within the
entire fleet.
I also have to agree with Aaron on his point about choosing the equipment based upon how
competitive you want to be and your local fleet. I usually dish out standard advice to
anyone who inquires about 505's. It's typically if they will only sail locally or aren't
sure if the 505 is right for them I'll suggest a classic because it's a good cheap way to
enter the class and our fleet has a competitive classic division. On the other hand if
they want to compete at a regional, national or world level I'll steer them towards a
decent used racing boat/superboat. I know I bought my Lindsay to attempt to be competitive
with the West coast boys not be ahead of my local fleet. It's
also the reason I buy new sails and constantly try to upgrade the boat to be more like the
Long Beach guys. It's really no secret that it takes time, effort and money to be
competitive at that level.
2 Big Spinnaker
Sure. In the three weeks of testing we did I thought the big chute was much faster off the
wind than the standard chute. In general, the distance between the boat with the BS and
the boat ahead was cut in half on each downwind leg.
Now granted, I was not on the boats (I timed mark roundings from shore) so I'm sure there
are other aspects that need to be considered than just speed. However I think it would be
a low/no impact change for the classics and possibly a big gainer for the class.
3 No
It's a one design fleet so let's never go to handicapping boats. Instead lets let them
complete against like boats similar to what we have done in San Diego. Believe me... It
works. A suggestion would be to have a classic division coordinator that could maybe
organize a classic Pacific Coast/ East Coast/ or maybe national Championship regatta held
in conjunction with another 505 event. It was something I was thinking about when I owned
USA 5687.
4. I think the class already understands that there is a difference and has a general
guideline to follow. I must admit though that we have seen a significant speed increase in
our classic fleet as the owners upgrade systems/sails and foils. While they'll probably
never be able to sail at the Long Beach level they could, with more time in the boat,
easily become competitive with the non rock stars.
5. Get everyone to join the class association and get involved. Perhaps if more classic
owners joined the class association then maybe their opinions would carry more weight.
This is not a slam on classic owners but simply a fact that most do not join the class
association for some reason or another.
Remember you have to be a member to vote and it's those people that make policy. Get
involved!
Dan Merino
USA 6991
Team Weasel
From: Rob Bateman
[[email protected]]
Sent: den 24 oktober 2000 23:50
To: 505 List
Subject: 505world Outside perspective.
Hi folks,
As an Irish (ex 505) sailor, I have been following your discussions with great interest.
Some years ago I took a decision to sail International 14s, this was mainly due to the
fact that I felt with my weight (110kgs/18 Stone) I could never be competitive in a 505
(as a helm).
I hope you don't mind my intruding on your list but I would like to make some
observations. Before I start I would like to say this - the 505 is one of the sweetest
allround dinghy shapes you will ever find. It may not always be the fastest, but it will
always be a pleasure to sail unlike (in some conditions) some of what the 505 sailors
refer to as the "Fad" dinghies.
As in other classes, the debate centres around the advent of new materials, the cost of
including them and whether or not they should be banned. You also are considering the
ramifications of rule changes to upgrade the boat i.e. lowering weight, increasing
spinnaker size and I even saw twin trapezes being mentioned. The arguments range from
increasing the appeal of the class via change to keeping the boat the same so as to
encourage people to buy older boats that are still competitive at club level.
Lets look at the I14 model. Lots of rule changes to stay ahead in boatspeed but at huge
expense in boat purchase cost. Around the time of a rule change class activity drops off,
people sit on the fence and wait for the new boats to evolve and then they purchase. When
the first of the "Fad" dinghies (Laser 5000) appeared they did untold damage to
the 14 class, the 5000s were faster, cheaper and easier to maintain but where are they
now? The 14s have now changed totally, hull weight 74Kgs, all carbon, automatic flexible
rigs and have thrown a lot of string out of the boat. The class is strong again, 123 boats
at the worlds an American champion, an Aussie the last time and a Brit before that. Sounds
ok to me, yet at the owners meeting we still look over our shoulders and mutter about RS
800s and 49ers because we feel that they have more to attract people with. The thing is:
the 14 has always been like this, you expect it and need to be prepared to put up with it,
otherwise sail some thing else.
I am afraid that if you change the 505 dramatically you will alienate a loyal grass roots
without selling yourself to a new bunch of people because no matter what you do the 505
will still look like a 505. We all know that a lighter 505 will be faster but remember,
somebody attracted by fads needs to see fad features! It is my belief that improving old
boats with new controls, foils and sails is as expensive as the throw away boat philosophy
of the 14s, but it sure is easier to buy a bit here and a bit there! (without losing too
much domestic credit :-) )
For what it's worth, please don't change the 505 too much, remember, if it ain't broke
don't fix it. I will be back to the class, probably with my significant other at the helm
(currently my 14 crew and Europe sailor)
Best of luck, Rob Bateman.
Int 14 IRL 1412 "The Skunk" Ex K6604 and K7289 (Both Parkers)
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